could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
and.... russian...

I will bite..  What do people in russia and/or former soviet russia do for hobbies?  

More specifically... what do they do for hobbies that I can't do right here in the U.S.  ?

lazs

You can't go hitch-hiking from Moscow to Krasnoyarsk visiting Central Asia on the way.

You can't go kajaking on Tunguska.

You can't join an archeological expedition in Crimea, Central Asia or Siberia.

Visiting Central Asia or Caucasian autonomies and being a guest, not a target for criminals, was exclusive for USSR.

I could add some stuff like amateur song fesivals (a great and complicated cultural layer) - but now such festivals in California or Israel are sometimes bigger then "Razgulyay" (OTOH - not nearly as big as Grushin's festival or "Island").

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Lazs you forget that the countries that have a free public healthcare sport also private healthcare where anyone can go with zero waiting time if they want to pay the premium (less what you pay in US btw.) Just recently a new law was passed giving a 'care guarantee' meaning that the public instances are obliged to provide certain health services during a time limit. Critical services such as acute toothache must be provided without waiting time. Non critical services must be examined within 3 days and the actual care must be done in 6 months.

Even if we have $6/gallon fuel we pay as much as you do in the end because we drive more fuel efficient cars which are also way more enviroment friendly due to lower greenhouse emissions.

Russia still has incredibly cheap gasoline and if I felt like it I could get a refill behind the border daily. Only one but..I'm not going to risk going through corrupt border guards and expose myself to 20km of russian highway crime (which it takes to drive to the nearest gas station from the border).

[Angus]

And what else is new?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Lazs you forget that the countries that have a free public healthcare sport also private healthcare where anyone can go with zero waiting time if they want to pay the premium (less what you pay in US btw.) Just recently a new law was passed giving a 'care guarantee' meaning that the public instances are obliged to provide certain health services during a time limit. Critical services such as acute toothache must be provided without waiting time. Non critical services must be examined within 3 days and the actual care must be done in 6 months.

Here emergency (life-critical issues and traumas) are provided for everyone immediately without any payment. It is still so. In April I had gangrenous peritonitis, I was on a surgeon's table in less then 3 hours after I called 03, they literally saved my life, while I still haven't got my medical insurance card. But it's Moscow, not some Muhosransk. OTOH hospital doesn't have modern medicines, I had to ask friends to buy everything for me, if I had ordinary insurance - doctors could simply not allow me to do it, because I could then send the bills to insurance company and they'll sue hospital for "unnessessary expences". The price of the problem was less then $40.

In Soviet times payed medical care existed as well as many other free-market stuff. It included expensive dental care and stuff like cosmetical surgery, non-vital things.

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Even if we have $6/gallon fuel we pay as much as you do in the end because we drive more fuel efficient cars which are also way more enviroment friendly due to lower greenhouse emissions.

Russia still has incredibly cheap gasoline and if I felt like it I could get a refill behind the border daily. Only one but..I'm not going to risk going through corrupt border guards and expose myself to 20km of russian highway crime (which it takes to drive to the nearest gas station from the border).

Well, Scandinavia highway seemed quite safe for me. And our petrol prices are exactly the same as in the US now, while average income is 10-50 times lower. Funny, isn't it?

[Boroda]

A funny text in Russian for Vad and other Russian-speakers.

We had an "anti-fascist march" in Moscow last weekend. One guy got arrested for carrying a slogan "Glory to Russia!"... According to "human rights activists" everyone who remembers that he's Russian by nationality is a fascist. It's like we're back in the post-Revolution times...

[lazs2]

Ok... so who pays for all this "free" stuff?   No one has answered.

I'll tell you who... all of you do with less of everything... you claim that your costs are lower because you drive cars that we don't want to but... we have the freedom to drive any kind of car we want.... little crapboxes to limmos...  

So why is U.S. healthcare so expensive?   How much can you sue doctors for?   Who pays for malpractice suits against doctors in your country?  

boroda... are you saying that we can't hitchhike to other countrys here if we want?   That is silly.  If we want we can drive from the top of Alaska down to the tip of chile... we listen to any kind of music we want.

So what other hobbies do you have there?    

Ok... what do I like to do?  travel.... work on hot rods and race.... play around with motorcycles... collect, repair and shoot a myriad of guns and reload ammo in my home for them...  remodel and work on my home... watch movies on DVD and mess around on these BB and play AH.... Read whatever seems interesting...

Those are things that I feel I have a right to do.   How many would I have been able to do in Soviet Russia?

I don't buy it that communism is good.... it just hasn't been done right yet...

It can't be done right... when you take from the productive and give to the non productive it is a recipe for failure.

socialism is the same.... no government run program can be any good or efficient unless it rules with an iron fist and severly limits individuality and choice..

for me... freedom means the rights of the individual and choice. for socialists... it appears that some sort of security is the ultimate freedom... so long as those are the parameters of our needs then we will not only disagree but we will go to war with each other.   If you take from me by force to give to someone else...  we will never get along.   I may give twice as much freely and by my choice but... that is a up to me..  I don't think you have a right to vote on it.

lazs

[Vad]

Lazs2, of course free stuff isn't actually "free". I agree with you that somebody always pays the bills. You (USA) pay from your pocket, socialism ( Canada, Sweeden, other European countries) pays by higher taxes, the USSR paid by artificially low salaries. I would say that in this the USSR had more common with Canada and Europe than with the USA. So, I would suggest to forget about Evil Empire for a while, and talk about Canada and the USA.

In general, result is the same, everybody get helth care, for example. If we are going in deep, we will see difference.

If we pay health care from our pocket the wealthy gets the better quality. As I see from your post you agree with that. Majority of Canadians prefer public health system. I don't want to express my opinion on this issue but I am far from the thought that they don't know what are they doing. And democracy in Canada works very well - the first step toward private health system cost Conservatives power in Ontario.

You accuse the USSR in what democratic, free and capitalistic systems in  Canada and Western Europe do right now.

May be, from the begining of this thread we should discuss not the differences between the West and the Soviet Union what now have just historical interest but differences in implementation of capitalism and social programs in the USA and other developed capitalist countries?

BTW, in this case I would be on your side. I didn't like low salary, but I HATE TAXES now!!!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
It can't be done right... when you take from the productive and give to the non productive it is a recipe for failure.

Kill all handicapped and sick. One regime in Europe tried to do it in 1933-45. It's quite hard to draw a line, isn't it?

Many union-wide programms in USSR simply coundn't be completed without global resources management inside the country. For example: no private company can afford geological surveys and development of oil-fields in Siberia. If we want to be "economically effective" on your conditions - it will mean that 80% of population will have to starve to death. Your "capitalism" is possible only for colonial empires.

[lazs2]

Ok boroda.. kill all the ineffective workers... course that would take a special kind of ruler wouldn't it?   one that might possibly be insane and kill millions of his own people for even worse reasons...  someone like say.... stalin..

Course... once the killing started... you would have to build walls around the place...

could be done.   Wonder why no one tried that yet?

As for oil exploration?   are you saying that no capitalist with a representitive repuplic and a constitution limiting governments powers has ever explored for oil?

Are you saying that your people are too dumb and helpless to do things without a strong government?   Not sure what you are saying at this point except...

"waaaaa... the free stuff is all gone now and I have to think for myself"

lazs

[mora]

Originally posted by lazs2
So why is U.S. healthcare so expensive?   How much can you sue doctors for?   Who pays for malpractice suits against doctors in your country?

So you're saying that it's less expensive than it appears, because some people may be able to extort millions in a case of a malpractise?

Law suits against doctors are very rare and the compensations are usually from a few thousands to even tens of thousands in a case of gross neglience. Every hospital has a patient insurance which covers malpractise.

Patient insurance would naturally cover all the patients medical costs and loss of income. For pain and suffering it would pay from a few hundred to even thousands in a severe case. For permanent disability the compensation would be roughly from 1000€ up to maybe 100 000€ in a severe case(like paralysis).

If a patient is subjected to a malpractise, and the hospital denies it, then the patient would have to submit the case to a review board. The hospitals are covered by insurance and state, and don't have big reasons to dispute malpractise cases, and they don't have armies of lawyers either. The review board is independent, if they deside not to take it forward then the person can file a law suit, but the chances of winning are very slim.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok boroda.. kill all the ineffective workers... course that would take a special kind of ruler wouldn't it?   one that might possibly be insane and kill millions of his own people for even worse reasons...  someone like say.... stalin..

Course... once the killing started... you would have to build walls around the place...

could be done.   Wonder why no one tried that yet?

As for oil exploration?   are you saying that no capitalist with a representitive repuplic and a constitution limiting governments powers has ever explored for oil?

Are you saying that your people are too dumb and helpless to do things without a strong government?   Not sure what you are saying at this point except...

"waaaaa... the free stuff is all gone now and I have to think for myself"

lazs

Lazs, you come to such strange conclusions that I sometimes think you are hallucinating, sorry

I spoke about oil in Siberia. Compare it to oil regions in US or Middle East. Add permafrost. Add huge distances. Add horrible continental climate. Calculate the expenses. Ask yourself if any capitalist will invest there, especially when he understands that investment will bring profit in maybe 30 years, it it will be profitable at all. We still live on Soviet heritage.

I am glad that you share progressive views and want to kill "ineffective" people, just as some modern Russian politicians in power now and human-rights activists, but I think I'll disagree with your "final solution": I am one of the "ineffectives" who works in an Academic institute instead of selling coca-cola and chewing-gum.

What I understand pretty well is that if we were "effective" in a "capitalist" way - I probably couldn't discuss it with you here, because both nazis and then NATO "freedom fighters" prepared death camps for me and my people, making those who were left alive speechless slaves. It's funny, but American plans for occupation in USSR included your "effectiveness" concept. Looks like in your area it's a common moral tradition, no surprise for a nation who genocided millions of native Americans without any doubt.

[MiloMorai]

You think Alaska and the Artic Ocean are a tropical climate Borada?

Where do you think the money came from for the oil exploration and wells there if capitalists did not invest money?

[mietla]

Originally posted by Boroda
Countries of people's democracy had much softer emigration laws, ask Mietla

Actually... no.

Since WWII it was close to impossible to leave Poland with your family. They needed the hostages so you'll return, you know that.

It's only after the Solidarity stomped on commies and before the commies stomped back, the window has opened. Before 1981 it took 8-12 weeks to get a passport (for all you non-commie guys, in a commie state you do not own your passport, the state does). Getting a passport involved the "background check". The secret police talked to your employer, co-workers, neighbors, and if you were deemed good enough they would decide to "lend" you your passport. Your family had to stay behind of course. Just in case. The Ministry of the Interior was the ONLY legal entity allowed to "lend" passports.

In spring 1981 everything magically changed. Not only you could get a passport in 3-4 days, but no background checks, entire families can go, and you can get a passport at your local tourist agency. No one knew what is going on, but it was mega weird. I left Oct 26, Dec 13 everything became obvious. The commies were simply trying to get rid of folks like myself. Fairly young, pissed with commies, ready to "do or die". Why would they want me there, to stir trouble?

FWIW, I was one of the founding members of Solidarity my work place. It trully was a grass roots movement you know. I was just a time ant though and got disillusioned very quickly. Thus, the only option left to me was to leave.

[~Caligula~]

There`s over a million russian immigrants in israel.
I made friends with many of them, there are some great people among them.
OTOH without generalizing there are things that are hard to overlook.
The older ones look at the soviet times as the greatness of russia, when they ruled over half the world.They think of themselves as the top of high cultured people, and that in the end Russia will win over America. They simply refuse to see all the suffering they caused to many other nations that were too small to break out of the communist block.They are willing to take no responsibilty for anything that happened, saying all was decided on the top....they just followed as sheeps(this they don`t actually admit)
The other thing is the lack of their personal hygens...it sucks to work with someone who won`t take showers as he should be doing in this climate.
I just heard a story about a thief caugh in an office building. He stole a laptop on monday, and was dumb enough to return on thursday. He was recognised with the help of the security cams....he was wearing the same shirt.

[Bluedog]

Hay Caligula, check yer PM box.