Author Topic: The Holocaust never happened.. (Read 1639 times)

Hangtime · « **Reply #45 on:** December 16, 2005, 12:33:45 PM »

Hey Boroda.. tell me. Does yer propaganda machine fun on vodka farts or on recycled soviet era textbooks?

lada · « **Reply #46 on:** December 16, 2005, 01:03:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hangtime
Hey Boroda.. tell me. Does yer propaganda machine fun on vodka farts or on recycled soviet era textbooks?

Good quiestion.... while regarding american propaganda, its quite clear
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-12-14-pentagon-pr_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-12-13-propaganda-inside-usat_x.htm

edit: im looking forward to strugle with somebody, what is and what is not american propaganda... it seems that we will have many oportunities

T0J0 · « **Reply #47 on:** December 16, 2005, 01:51:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
Does it mean that you agree with Ahmadinejad and admit that the whole hysteria began because his words were [intentionally] distorted in translation? If not - then, I suppose, it's because in some issues "politeness" is more important for you then truth and common sence?

I dont agree with Ahmadinejad at all if what he states is actually what we are hearing in the media, your point is the media is distorting or purpossely misleading the translation of his comments.
And yes when sitting around a room of jewish friends its not polite to downplay the holocaust victims numbers against probable russian casualties of 20 million..
That conversation would only take place if you and I were sitting around drinking vodka at 3:00am solving the worlds problems on the back porch...

TJ

Hangtime · « **Reply #48 on:** December 16, 2005, 02:00:28 PM »

Eisenhower forced the world media into auschwitz to document the holocost. he wrote that he did it because he was convinced that at some point in the future the atrocities would be claimed as being fabrications.

The guy was truly prescient on this one, enh?

Thats the differnce between propaganda and fact. Documentation. what we in the west refer to as the 'katyn forrests' and the murder of millions of people by stalin, hitler, tojo, amin, pol pot, etc et al is documented fact.

spout yer soviet era governemnt propaganda as fact, you'll get free western press documentation shoved under yer nose by folks in the west that understand the diffrence between soviet government propganda and documented historical facts.

the difference is there's folks like you floating around that prefer the soviet propaganda to the facts and go to immense lengths to resist the truth, no matter how many factual, open and non-government controlled sources the documention proving otherwise has.

so, go ahead lada, be a propaganda parrot for a defunct empire. live in your glory of faded and failed 5 year plans and starvation, mass murder and human rights deprivations disguised as regime propaganda.

That's western culture for yah.. unimpressed by propaganda.. yours or ours.

rshubert · « **Reply #49 on:** December 16, 2005, 02:03:41 PM »

Lada:

Do you agree that a large number of jews and others were systematically murdered during the Hitler regime? If so, can we agree to call that series of events "the holocaust"?

It has been well documented that such a program existed, that it was carried out, and that one of the primary targets was the Jewish population of Europe. Yes, there were other victims, including Gypsies, Homosexuals, Liberals, Communists, and anyone else considered to be an enemy of the Nazis.

Let's not fight about the numbers--it was "many". Too many.

I disagree with your characterization that the former death camps (my preferred term for those places used to carry out the holocaust) are in any way "holy" sites. Holy implies a religious connection. I don't see it. I see it as a memorial to those millions who suffered and died there. And a reminder that we must never again allow ourselves to treat other human beings as a lesser form of life.

We need that reminder, since we haven't all learned the lesson.

Boroda:

Even your previous Soviet regime admitted the crimes of Uncle Iosef against his own people. The numbers are in question (again) but let's not quibble--it was "too many".

Yeager · « **Reply #50 on:** December 16, 2005, 02:05:37 PM »

Christ walked on water, but Im not sure if it was a documented fact or a soviet fabrication

Squire · « **Reply #51 on:** December 16, 2005, 02:07:26 PM »

Maybe the Russians should dismantle all their war memorials too, every VE day, they whine about all the deaths they suffered, geez, get over it and move on, whats the big deal huh?

Seagoon · « **Reply #52 on:** December 16, 2005, 03:30:02 PM »

Hello Boroda,

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
Seagoon, did you write all that text yourself?

We are talking about nazis now.

Nazis killed 20 million Soviet civilians.

You use numbers of victims of "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) that are not based on any facts and are a nazi propaganda invention. Numbers of "repressed" people are availible. If your numbers are true and "Evil Soviet Regime" (tm) killed over 20 million people - then I wonder how anyone still lives here.

So, back to the subject: why should Jews be special and better then, for example, Belorussians, who lost one third of their population?

I sense this is going to be a fruitless exchange, but I'm willing to enter into it.

Answering your questions, did I write that text myself? Yes, I wrote it. The figures and dates were drawn from other sources as I was born in 1969 and was not there at the time.

I'll confess I'm not sure to what ends you are going to attempt to contest this as "propaganda" and I'm hoping this isn't going to lead to a 1984-ish scenario where "Oceania had never been at war with Eurasia" and so on.

Did the Soviet Union not invade Poland in September of 1939?

Was Gorbachev lying in 1989 when he finally admitted what the world already knew, namely that the Soviets had executed some 25,700 Poles in March 1940 and buried them at 3 sites?

Are you seriously going to dispute with the Poles that Russia deported at least 1.2 million of their countrymen? Are you going to argue with the KGB figures for the Gulags released under Yeltsin?

What figures and admissions would you accept as not being Nazi Propaganda? What about the deliberate mass starvation of the Kulaks which occurred before the Second World War. Did the Soviets even sign a non-agression treaty with Germany in history as you recognize it or is that propaganda too?

Let me start with some baseline questions and we'll work up from there. By answering these you'll help me to understand how to proceed.:

Did the USSR invade Poland in September of 1939?

Did the USSR deport Polish citizens to labor camps?

Did the USSR summarily execute numbers of Poles (officers, aristocrats, etc.) at Katyn and other sites in Eastern Poland? And if so how many?

How many Russians do you believe were executed, deliberately starved, or died in the gulags during the Stalin years?

How many German POWs do you believe died in the Siberian camps from 1941-1955?

Thanks in advance.

- SEAGOON

weaselsan · « **Reply #53 on:** December 16, 2005, 03:50:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Perhaps the UN will issue a resolution strongly advising other countries to get involved in a resolution to form a committe to decide on what kind if any strongly worded warning to give the country of Iran and that if they persist more debate will then be needed to come up with the correct wording of a resolution that says there needs to be a resolution on how to start to think about admonishing Iran.

Or we can all wait for Lada to come here and tell us how this is just western propaganda and lies and how Iran is a peacfull country with good intentions that loves Isreal and would never do anything like that.

They would never take such drastic action.

Seagoon · « **Reply #54 on:** December 16, 2005, 04:04:56 PM »

Hi Momus,

Quote

Originally posted by Momus--
Seagoon, what is the source for your claim that approx 100 - 300 million muslims are directly engaged in jihad?

At first I was confused as to how you were getting that figure, I assume it is an extrapolation of my saying that only a pitifully small number of Muslims were involved in Jihad proportionately "10%? 30%?" and then comparing that to 1.9 Billion total population. My point was more aimed at what Ahmadinejad would call an inadequate response amongst the Umma to worldwide calls for Jihad, but depending on how one defines "participating in Jihad" then I would be comfortable with a 10% total figure.

Why? Well if we are defining supporting Jihad only as actively fighting for the spread of Islam in a terrorist organization, we have a large number. If we gather up the total numbers of Chechen, Jordanian, Iraqi, Philipino, Palestinian, Iranian, Bangladeshi, Sudanese, Nigerian, Kosovar, Macedonian, Afghani, Pakistani, Kashmiri, Egyptian, Uzbek, Lebanese, Tajik, Kuwaiti, Thai (yes Buddhists are being killed by Jihadis in southern Thailand), Algerian, Saudi, and so on, Jihadis we have a large and growing number of fighters, probably in the hundreds of thousands (this includes formal members of these organizations and associated militia i.e. part-time Jihadis such as the Janjaweed in Sudan - but the number would be higher if one included the "instant bloodthirsty armed mobs" of Indonesia, Pakistan, etc.)

But if one adds in those who support the Jihad financially, publish, print, and distribute Jihad encouraging materials, work for Jihad friendly media, train future Jihadis in thousands of religious schools worldwide or who study in these schools, work in or around or support Jihad preaching and endorsing Masjids (which is rapidly becoming a majority in many nations especially via the deluge of Saudi supported materials and Imams) work for the government or armed forces of nations pursuing Jihad (like Sudan), work actively to enact and enforce Sharia law in various nations, and generally actively support all of the activities included under the heading Jihad, i.e. the religious cleansing of the Dar-El-Islam and the extension of Islam as the one faith worldwide and the elimination or subjugation of all other faiths, then yes, you are really talking about at least 10% of the Ummah. And yes clearly the Iranians would like that number to be much higher.

- SEAGOON

lada · « **Reply #55 on:** December 16, 2005, 05:15:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
whole hysteria began because his words were [intentionally] distorted in translation?

Translation ?

simple statemt, that "Muhamed Ali become myth of Boxing" was labeled as "HAHAHA IDIOT HE DENY ALI's SUPPERIORITY... HE IS INCREDIBLE INBECIL ISNT HE ? !!? ?!! "

No, no translation error, just plain public stupidity, because many people, even over here ,came and posted picture of "Ali" shoulting "HAHAHAHAAA WHAT AN RETARD, HERE IS PICTURE OF ALI HHAHAHA WHAT A TARD" ...

I hope that its clear, that im flaming those who let themself to be so easily manipulated, while im not defending Hamas in this moment. Im just saying that before somebody will mention that i claimed that Ahmdi is genius. Like somebody did in the past.

lada · « **Reply #56 on:** December 16, 2005, 05:31:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by rshubert
Lada:

Do you agree that a large number of jews and others were systematically murdered during the Hitler regime?

Yes

Quote

Originally posted by rshubert

If so, can we agree to call that series of events "the holocaust"?

No. ( look look .. you can omit my second sentese and say that i deny holocaust.

"the holocaust" was systematicall murder of "lower races" and "problematic class".Jews were only one of the affected group, thus i dont consider "the holocaust" to be a Jews related problem, but Jews were affected by this problem.

Quote

Originally posted by rshubert

It has been well documented that such a program existed, that it was carried out, and that one of the primary targets was the Jewish population of Europe. Yes, there were other victims, including Gypsies, Homosexuals, Liberals, Communists, and anyone else considered to be an enemy of the Nazis.

No its not true. Official well documented program were to promote and spread supperior race and resolve problem of other "underhumans".

Quote

Originally posted by rshubert

Let's not fight about the numbers--it was "many". Too many.

rgr

Quote

Originally posted by rshubert

I disagree with your characterization that the former death camps (my preferred term for those places used to carry out the holocaust) are in any way "holy" sites. Holy implies a religious connection. I don't see it. I see it as a memorial to those millions who suffered and died there. And a reminder that we must never again allow ourselves to treat other human beings as a lesser form of life.

i agree i used term holy in meaning "something we can not touch, because higher power have its interests here(not god)".
But i completly agree with your description, my was kinda too prosaic

Quote

Originally posted by rshubert

We need that reminder, since we haven't all learned the lesson.

Many people didnt learn lesson.
Because IMO we are not the one who shall decide and act, based on our right troughs, about life of others who we belive to missed something. (lol damm bloody english does it make sense ?)
In other words. We should not judge who did learn the lesson and who didnt. Otherwise we are starting just another demagogy.
What do you think ?

Boroda · « **Reply #57 on:** December 17, 2005, 12:17:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
Did the USSR invade Poland in September of 1939?

No. There was no Poland when Soviet troops took back our lands lost in 1920. After Polish government ran away - Poland became only a "geographical concept". Fortunately, in Potsdam Soviet leafership insisted on creating a new Polish state, annexing some former German lands and including them into Polish territory, while Western "allies" tried to divide Polish lands and opposed the creation of Polish state.

Did Allies invade Roman Empire in 1943?

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
Did the USSR deport Polish citizens to labor camps?

See above. There was no Poland, so there were no Polish citizens. As for ethnic Poles - they didn't suffer more then any other nationality.

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
Did the USSR summarily execute numbers of Poles (officers, aristocrats, etc.) at Katyn and other sites in Eastern Poland? And if so how many?

Some Poles were executed, just like Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians or Tatars. According to Russian Federation General Prosecutor's office report - 1800 former Polish citizens died on Soviet territory.

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
How many Russians do you believe were executed, deliberately starved, or died in the gulags during the Stalin years?

Population of GULAG in 1937 was almost two times smaller then population of GUIN RF in 1999. Death penalty was used in some years, in some years there was a ban on death penalty, most of the people executed in 1927-53 were nazi supporters after the War. Excluding this number - death penalty wasn't used much more often then in Western countries.

Here I have to say that my Grand-grandfather was executed in 1939 for "sabotage"

Quote

Originally posted by Seagoon
How many German POWs do you believe died in the Siberian camps from 1941-1955?

I can't tell you about Siberian camps, they were mostly used on reconstruction works in European Russia. I think that numbers are availible, too lazy to search. The fact is that USSR signed and followed Geneva conventions. Sometimes nazi POWs got more food then Soviet civilians. In 1947 we had a bad harvest, children were dieing, and at the same time nazi POWs got proper food rations... Number of German POWs who died in Soviet POW camps is several times less then a number of Soviet POWs killed by nazis.

Any other questions? You are welcome!

Suave · « **Reply #58 on:** December 18, 2005, 12:42:50 AM »

Boroda is our own museum exhibit.

Press the button to hear more.

Suave · « **Reply #59 on:** December 18, 2005, 12:49:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda

See above. There was no Poland, so there were no Polish citizens. As for ethnic Poles - they didn't suffer more then any other nationality.

Soo... Polish didn't exist as a nationality, but as an ethnicity?

Wow I did not know that Polish was a race, is german and russian ethnicities also ?

"Yes we invaded that country, but that country didn't exist. So it's all good."