The Holocaust never happened..

[Yeager]

now do you guys understand why russia is always so FUBAR'd

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Just wondering - would it matter if I were to publish the statements by Gorbachev and his successors in which they admitted to various attrocities (including Katyn) and the deaths during the Stalin era, or made reference to statistics gleaned from the Kremlin archives since they were partially opened in the '90s?  

Look, I try to find that mystical Katyn' "documents" provided to Poland by Gorby - still found nothing. Gorby could admit that Soviets crucified Christ.

Opened archives have nothing about Katyn.

Originally posted by Seagoon
Would it be correct to also assume that you would argue with the 1,606,748 documented deaths in the Gulag system (there are far more still hidden in the unreleased info). Did Kolyma even exist? And were Shalamov and Sozhenitsyn merely pawns of the West?  

A number that you provide looks reasonable. Does it include death sentences only or is it a number of people who died in GULAG?

Solzhenitsyn already said that his "GULAG Archipelago" was a great mistake, and that he simply took all the numbers of "victims" right out of his ass.

BTW, Solzhenitsyn's "One day of Ivan Denisovich" is a great book.

Originally posted by Seagoon
Also, the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was signed in August 23, 1939. It included a secret protocol for the division of Poland and laid the groundwork for the Soviet Invasion of September 17, 1939 as well as the occupation of the Baltics. This was obviously before the Polish President was forced to flee to Romania on September 18th and prior to the USSR's invasion of Poland (or was the orderly and equitable partitioning of Poland a spontaneous act of German-Russian goodwill?) To their credit the Poles had an exile government up and operating in Paris by the 30th of September.

Russian Empire also had many "government in exile". The fact remains that USSR created and armed Wojsko Polsko, not the impotent politicians in London.

There was no occupation of so-called "Baltic states". They jouned USSR after legitimate democratic procedures. Compare it with invasion to Iraq.

They had to be occupied by USSR, otherwise they had to be occupied by nazis, and Leningrad could fall on the first week of war.

USSR failed to develop an agreement with "allies" in August 1939, that's why we had to sign a non-agression treaty.

Originally posted by Seagoon
Ah well, an interesting online exhibit of things that you feel never happened:

Gulags  

I hope that you can read, not only write. didn't I say that my Grandfather spent 2 years in BAMLag and my Grand-Grandfather was executed in 1939?

Originally posted by Seagoon
Just a personal observation. The only thing worse than actually being murdered by a despotic regime is becoming a "non-person" utterly erased from the history books. One of the reasons why what the USSR perpetrated was in some ways worse than the attrocities of the Germans, is that at least the deaths of German victims have been documented. While many of the names were lost, there has been a concerted attempt to recover that information, while in the former USSR the vast majority of the executed remain "ghosts", paved over or erased from history. They "never existed" their images even removed from doctored photographs. Murder is evil, but being deleted, having ones very existence voided, is far worse.

Soviet victims are documented too. I mean - documented. I don't care about Solzhenitsyn's lies.

Believe me, my relatives are not "erased from history". They are erased for "Memorial" and other anti-Soviet puppets that you quote.

It's absolutely insane to compare Soviet regime to nazis. In fact you repeat all the Goebbels's inventions from the 30s. GULAG got mythologised just as Holocaust was, but it was mythologised by nazis and their political inheritors, who still use Goebbels's "the bigger the lie is - the more people will believe it".

In some things USSR acted mych softer then Western countries. For example - how US "interned" ethnic Japanese. USSR simply evacuated German colonists to Kazakhstan, and only after in Ukraine they began to shoot Soviet soldiers in the back.

[Seagoon]

Hi Boroda,

Before I begin, I am sincerely sorry about your Grandfather, and your Great Grandfather. I have met several Russian and Ukranian emigres over the past few years, and your family story is not uncommon especially with families that had members of the intelligentsia during the period of Stalin's terror.

Originally posted by Boroda
Look, I try to find that mystical Katyn' "documents" provided to Poland by Gorby - still found nothing. Gorby could admit that Soviets crucified Christ.

Opened archives have nothing about Katyn.

I'll concentrate on this, rather than issues like the even easier "the Baltics welcomed us in" statement, because I would rather answer one issue completely than the hammer at a number and frankly because it seems to be a typical denial of an irrefutable, and even admitted to, Soviet atrocity. If I can't make any headway on something as obvious as Katyn, then I'm unlikely to be able to persuade you that any elements of Stalin's terror weren't products of Josef Goebbels.

First lets deal with the admission under Gorbachev. One of many sites with the information you are looking for is: Remembering Katyn

Here's one of the most relevant section:
------------------
On April 13, 1990, the Soviet authorities at last admitted responsibility for the massacres at Katyn and elsewhere, although the figure cited in the relevant statement—"around 15,000"—fell short of the real total by more than 6,000. The admission came in a statement by the Tass news agency, with the personal authority of then Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. The statement referred to only three of the prison camps involved: Smolensk, Voroshilovgrad, and Kalinin. It claimed that the authorities had knowledge of the killings through "recently discovered documents." "Direct responsibility for the crime" was ascribed to Beria. The statement ended "The Soviet side, expressing profound regret over the Katyn tragedy, declares that this was one of the gravest crimes of Stalinism."

At a meeting in Moscow that day, Gorbachev presented Polish president General Wojciech Jaruzelski with copies of the NKVD's lists of names of Polish internees in the three camps mentioned. The Polish government issued a statement declaring that the question of responsibility for the massacre had "weighed particularly painfully" on Polish-Soviet relations and that the "long-awaited" Soviet admission made possible a relationship based on "partnership and true friendship." The statement went on: "Reconciliation can only be built on truth." It is surely fair to add that the Tass statement—although useful for relations between the ailing Soviet Union and its Polish satellite—was true but not the whole truth. Only three of the localities involved were named, and the total given fell short of the true figure.
----------------

I would encourage you tor read the entire article.

- SEAGOON

[Boroda]

Seagoon, I have read all this stuff back in Gorby's times. "List of crimes of Evil Stalin gets longer every day! Yesterday we added a beer-booth robbery!".

I still didn't see any documents other then obvious fakes. And I want to know why Poles were shot from German pistols.

I admit that USSR could commit that crime, but I see no proof, other then Gorby's statements. It's a fact that several European humanitarians (names are in Kurt Reiss's "Goebbels: a devil's advocate") who signed the original nazi report in 1943 were forced to do it, and they couldn't be threatened by Soviets because they lived in Western occupation zones.

The whole story is dirty, and the fact is that some forces use it to raise hatered between Poles and Russians. And they never remember about Polish invasion in 1920 or a fate of 100,000 Russian POWs in Poland in 1918-1920. If you scream about Katyn' at every corner - then why you forget thousands of Russian soldiers starved to death by Polish regime after WWI? Same double standard: noone cares about Russian/Soviet people, and everyone screams about Jews and Poles. Everyone remembers the case of "Jewish anti-fascist commeete" but noone remembers Babiy Yar.

[Seagoon]

Boroda, I'm going to have to do what I don't like doing and just give up. If I can't get you to concede to the crimes that even Gorbachev and the Politburo partially conceded, and if you won't accept what the Poles themselves know they went through, then there really isn't anywhere left for me to go in the discussion. Your position truly is invincible in that regard.

Well, I will say this,  no one will be able to question your faith in Soviet Communism. Nothing will shake it. You remind me of Kirov and the young Bukarin in that respect. Then again, they both got shot by Stalin as well.

Thanks for answering at least.  


- SEAGOON

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Rude
I'm afraid that ones on us Hang:)

Never ask Man to do God's job.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Boroda, I'm going to have to do what I don't like doing and just give up. If I can't get you to concede to the crimes that even Gorbachev and the Politburo partially conceded, and if you won't accept what the Poles themselves know they went through, then there really isn't anywhere left for me to go in the discussion. Your position truly is invincible in that regard.

Well, I will say this,  no one will be able to question your faith in Soviet Communism. Nothing will shake it. You remind me of Kirov and the young Bukarin in that respect. Then again, they both got shot by Stalin as well.

Thanks for answering at least.  


- SEAGOON

I just won a bet.

Seagoon, it's exchanges like yours that lead me to believe that Patton had the russian communist mindset pegged perfectly.. and his solution may yet remain the very best one.