Observations on new 109s

[straffo]

Who care of the FM ?

If you love a plane just fly it and shut up.

[Wilbus]

Originally posted by straffo
Who care of the FM ?

If you love a plane just fly it and shut up.

It's not as easy as that Straffo.

Imagine the outrage if the Pony was porked.

It sucks to love and plane which was historicaly good and even great when it sucks in AH, takes away the fun of flying it.

[straffo]

You know I'm an equal flying disaster whatever plane I'm in and I try to fly them all regardless of their origin/

I myself want the the planes be the more accurate possible as before being a "fighter" pilot I'm an aviation lover, and I don't think this kind of discussion can lead anywhere.

I'm also guily of whining for things I feel don't right in AH (who said fuel multiplier ?) but for now this as to stop being a whine fest and start again to be constructive ,backed by verifiable ,accurate and honest facts.

[AKFokerFoder+]

Originally posted by Shamus
My big b**** is with the cockpit views, the f4 is still ok, tho i I still miss the gondi option for furballs.

With the punch of the LW cannons, now that you only have one gun, you are probably better off flying a Yak, not as much gas, but about the same ammo, better hitting power, and somewhat similar performance.  A lot less compression, and much better views.

Originally posted by Shamus
I used to fly the g2 a lot and I still have to say that low speed handling seems worse, view related?,

The views may be what is making the FM seem so different.  When you fly a plane a lot, you get a feel for what is should do.  And the new 109s sure “feel” different.  And that may be the views, but I think part of it is compression.  It just seems to be less responsive at medium to high speeds than it used to.  And once it locks up in compression, it seems to take longer to get response back (that is lower speeds)

Originally posted by Shamus
 dunno..bottom line is that it's no fun to fly any longer.

shamus

I think you have nailed the problem down perfectly with that statement.  I want a fun aircraft to fly.  And the 109F4 was fun, it was competitive in a turn fight.  That is, it could keep you alive for long enough for either:
A. someone to shoot the bogey off your six, or
B. the bogey to realize you aren’t an easy kill and break off, or
C. for some bogey to cherry pick or HO you.  

Which is all I can expect from a plane.

The new candidates for a fun plane do not include 109s.  

I just can’t fly like some people can.  I never have been able, nor will I ever be able to be, a top quality pilot. So I have to look to the ride to make up for my lack of skill.  And I know I will get all the kee rap about it’s the pilot, not the plane.  But being a skilled sim pilot is like being a skilled baseball player.  Not all of us will make it into the major leagues.

[storch]

crumpp has sent reams of documentation regarding the 190, to no (zero, zilch, nada, goose eggs) avail.  all the LW is incorrectly modelled to a fair extent and will remain so.  it would be bad business for htc to do so. the staus quo requires it to remain so.  what would happen if the ponies and spits were dropping like flies every sortie (as they almost do now)?  why do you think there are no sherman tanks in the game? the fact is that if there were shermans they would have to be so rediculously overmodelled that it would be a farce.  kinda like how the LW rides work now except there would be people actually saying something about it.  frankly I don't care if they ever "fix" it.  I'm working on improving my skills in my favorite rides even though I start the race fettered.

[Hajo]

In AW for years I prefered to fly the A8.  Was difficult in Aces High and had wicked departure.  Most of you that know me from Air warrior know this to be true.  I flew the K4 frequently in AW also.  We All know the FM in Air Warrior was....let me just say below par to be kind.

When I first came to Aces High I again flew the FW.  Wow what a change...I was pleased with the roll rate and the speed....and also the high speed handling of the 190s.....very nice indeed.  When the A5 came out it turned nicely....not on a dime but it was a great high speed turner.  At high speeds in RL and in Aces High it could out turn a spit  until the FW lost enough E that it's rate of turn would decrease to the point that if you were on someones 6 ya better break straight with good speed to extend.

I flew the 109s in Aces High also and after some getting used to they were a fine aircraft.  I enjoyed flying them and imho they turned fairly well.  When the earlier models came out they were not that far behind a spitfire of the same period.  IMHO it stalls quicker now.  Pushing the 109s envelope"can only be done for a short period of time at speeds near 250mph.  At about 230mph it nears stall....keeping a wingup is your focus and if you're on someones six at that point you might think of getting your affairs in order.  Because at that speed and condition (around 225 to 240) you're treading water trying to keep it upright and your opponent will just cruise around and pop you just about the time you've got the wings paralell to the ground.

Been flying Air Combat Sims a long time.....this is really the first time in Aces High when I've asked about comparing actual stats on a fighter (Total kills) during WW2 and question how it accumulated those kills with being a lackluster performer in many areas in our MA.  No doubt it climbs well, I like the 30mms and my k/d is favorable even fighting on the deck in the K4.  But if it dipped a wing no matter a what alt in WW2 like it did here.  Methinks it would have been easy for allied aircraft to make the 109 and for that matter a 190 a non issue as an opponent.

Didn't mean to start a fight about these aircraft.  HTC has done a great job with this sim.  I just wanted to know how aircrafts with very fine records during the war did that flying the way they do in Aces High.

[Kev367th]

If you think wings dipping are only a problem for the LW planes, try flying a Tiff.
Notoriously bad for dipping the right wing in a med/slow turn, does the same pulling out of slowish dives, almost wants to roll on its back.

Straight from the horse mouth at HTC - There have been NO FM changes on the 190s/109s. (spoke to them today).

Not even the suggested 'they roll slower' opinions. NO FM changes at all.

[Krusty]

See my previous comments about the complexity of the code. There have been changes, probably in other areas of code that affect these aircraft.

[Hajo]

Kev.......not asking whether it has changed.  Questioning if the FM of the LW rides matches the rides IRL.  I don't really understand how the LW accomplished what they did, out numbered, in aircraft that clearly are not even close to the modeled Allied craft in Aces High.  If the FM is ok.....then the LW Pilots were the best ever to put on a scarf and a pair of flying goggles.  Akin to racing a greyhound with a beagle imho.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Krusty
See my previous comments about the complexity of the code. There have been changes, probably in other areas of code that affect these aircraft.

Any other changes would affect ALL aircraft not just the LW.

Only model changes.
i.e. If I take a F-15 model with an FM then swap the model for a Sopwith Camel all that changes is what it looks like, nothing else. It will still perform as an F-15.
Same thing for the G10/K4
All they swapped was the model, its doesn't affect how the plane flies, its a virtual plane flying in virtual air. Only an FM change alters the charecteristics.

You won't even believe guys who still have old installations when they tell you they are identical in performance.

Hajo - I was commenting on despite what HT has said many many many times recently, poeple keep on claiming that all the recent or even some earlier patches have altered the LW flight characteristics.

[AKFokerFoder+]

Originally posted by Grits
You guys claiming wild changes in plane behaviour with each patch know that HT is sitting in the office reading this after a hard day of coading and laughing at you right?

After about the 6th compression in the new 109s I couldn't get out of in time, before the dirt smacked me I stopped laughing.

Compression has always been a problem in the 109s, but you could cut throttle, kick rudder, turn off combat trim and pound on the K key and normally get out of the compression before the trees ate you for lunch.

I took a K4 out last night, and ate dirt. I flew the G14 for 0 kills 1 death and the  K4 for 0 kills and 1 death this month.

Last month I was 29 and 8 in the G14, it is a total piece of kee rap compared to the G6, and 20 and 4 in the new G6.  Just checkin my scores and I have been about 4 to 1 in 109s over the last few tours.  I was 106 n 17 in the F4 in Sept tour. So I'm no Nath or Wetrat, but  it isn't like I haven't flown them.

HT is laughing, I am flying LA's and Spits now.

At least someone thinks it's funny.

[wetrat]

Foder, if you're compressing 109's, you're not flying them right. You need to work the throttle... that's half the battle in 109's. You can't do the snoozfest BnZ cherrypicking P51's/47's/spits/190's/la7's can pull off... the plane just doesn't work like that. And if put any amount of time in 109's, you should probably have elev. trim up mapped on your stick somewhere. I don't find any difference in compression between the K4 and G10... the last time I was active (August) I was flying the G10. When I came back last month, the G10 was the K4. I hopped in it and flew it the EXACT same... there's no difference.

[Grits]

I'm no Nath, Stang or Wetrat either (all of whom say the G-10/K-4 are identical BTW). I'm 17- 5 in the G-14, 4-0 in the K-4 (one sortie) and 17-4 in the 190A-5. They all seem to me to fly just like they always have since the change to AH2, same strengths and same weaknesses. What has changed is their crappy views got worse and their most common opponents (was the Spit V, now is the Spit VIII/XVI) have gotten much better. In that sense as I have said before, their performance relative to what type of plane you are most likely to fight has changed, but not the real performance.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by Grits
I'm no Nath, Stang or Wetrat either (all of whom say the G-10/K-4 are identical BTW). I'm 17- 5 in the G-14, 4-0 in the K-4 (one sortie) and 17-4 in the 190A-5. They all seem to me to fly just like they always have since the change to AH2, same strengths and same weaknesses. What has changed is their crappy views got worse and their most common opponents (was the Spit V, now is the Spit VIII/XVI) have gotten much better so in that sense as I have said before, their performance relative to what type of plane you are most likely to fight has changed, but not the real performance.

Spot on with relative performance... when I come across a Seafairy/sissyV/sissy9, it's like I'm fighting a P40. The VIII and XVI take away the K4's climb rate advantage of old --- one of the best tools we used to have against sissyfires.

[Krusty]

It's not the views that are affecting the flight. It's not the "relative" strength of the spits because the few times I took 109s up before quitting them, I wasn't encountering any spits, just older planes that I knew I could/should be able to kill.

Wetrat: I think what fodder is saying is that he used to be able to do things that he can no longer do. I used to dive 109s at high speed on targets all the time, you'd stiffen up but if you throttled back you would slow down and side slipping with rudders kept you from over speeding. What he's describing now is that he can't get out of compression anymore. I noticed that the controls lock up almost after takeoff on the new 109s ( ) so compression is an issue now, whereas it never was for me before.