Author Topic: Observations on new 109s  (Read 3303 times)

Offline wrag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3499
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2005, 08:08:26 PM »
For those claiming the 109s have not change one little bit?

I find myself wondering just how hard you push the 109 when you fly it?

I flew them pretty much my entire time in AHI and AHII.  Loved em.  Yes Difficult to fly but...........  I pushed the 109 hard as I could nearly every hop.  Have gotten in some great fights and even manage to survive 1 or 2.  

109's can do some interesting things when pushed or perhaps a better way of saying it is they used to ............

Huge change came about when we went from AHI to AHII, do you agree?  or disagree?

Last patch applied and I tried flyin the same as I always fly and plane would not preform as it DID.

The F4 lost it's turn AND it's teeth. Even heard some say the single 20 acts more like a 50cal?  The G14 is slow and twitchy and little better then the old G6.  The K4 is twitchy and seems abit more twitchy then the G10 when pushed to the limit.

I flew the G10 with the 20mm nose and gonds, but from time to time I would try just the 20mm nose or just the 30mm nose.

IMHO the CG or something is off just a little.  The 109k4 is NOT a g10 IMHO.  Thay are NOT the same.  Something is different.  Handling is DIFFERENT!

I said as much earlier in this post.  And I just said alot of the same stuff.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2005, 09:34:03 PM »
Toldja it was always like that.
 


 If anything changed between AH1 and AH2, the 109s and some other planes gained considerably severe destabilization when approaching stall envelope - which has been discussed.

 Although HTC's official response is "there are no changes in the FM", we all know how these 'official responses' are worded. For instance, Pyro commented the gunnery modelling didn't change. People were swearing that something changed in AH2beta.... then Pyro the sly devil added that it was the 'hit detetction resolution' that changed.

 Most people guess (well, at least I do) that such changes might be present, but neither confirmed nor verified for various reasons. Yes, the "FM" didn't change, but something else that works in cohesion with the basic FM, might have.

 Much simularly, many experienced 190 pilots (and unexperienced pilots like me :p ) claimed that the planes became slightly more generous in near-stall maneuvering - such was the consensus and quite difficult to just stamp it under the placebo envelope. Personally, my opinion is that the 190 vertical maneuvering is now much easier, which I can often push the plane upto vertical 0mph and stall out gently, and then nose down. In previous versions, this was dangerous - at least for me.


 Therefore, it is possible there were also slight changes to the 109 in some way, and some people might feel it. However, the problems which most of the people are complaining about here, are problems that always existed with the 109s rather than something new. Virtually every US plane, every British plane maneuvers better than 109s and 190s, and that's a given fact in AH.

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10152
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2005, 09:49:54 PM »
change or not. the 190s are literally junk. You cant dog fight in them. Not like you can dog fight in a P51. The two compared.... The P51 may as well be a zeek. Aint no way you're going to win any kinda stall fight against a P51 in a 190.. Not in AH. The P51 got a boost of balls when AH2 came along. A fighter that I spent a ton of time in turn fighting in AH1, suddenly felt like it grew even bigger balls in the turn fight world when AH2 beta came along. I dont care what anyone says, it changed when AH2 came out... And the 190s felt like they just completely had them cut off.

I really love reading that irl the A8 was comparable to the P47's of its day. Oh really? The A8 in AH to the P47 in AH is what a School bus is to a Viper today.

I also love reading that irl the A8 was the best A variant. When in AH is is the absolute worst.

Sad...

Also, with a few select people handing out historical evidence showing how flaps could be deployed at much higher speeds than they currently can be deployed at in AH... And they're still nerffed.

PLEASE GOD FIX THE 109 FLAPS ALREADY.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Offline Mr No Name

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2005, 10:35:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I was flying the 109F4 and G6 a lot in version 2.5, I am now looking for a new ride.  I like the Spit16, and my old buddy the 190A8.  The A8 is a piece of kee rap, but it dives nice, shoots welll, and anything if front of your guns dies :)

The front views of the are porked in Ver 2.6; get used to it.

The 109F4 had it’s teeth pulled out; get used to it.

The G6 lost it’s punch; get used to it.

The G10 is dead; get used to it.

The 14 is the old G6, or so we are told, the old G6 was a pretty nice ride, the new 14 compresses just to spite you.  And did I mention that the front view sucks?

The K4 has just the few rounds of 30mm; doesn’t climb like a G10, compresses just to spite you.

The compression on the new 109 is much worse than the old 109s, it starts sooner, and locks you up into a tough to get out of dive,  I auger too much in it.

As for flaps in the Luft Wobble rides, this has been hashed over too many times.  In spite of strong evidence that the flaps could deploy at higher speed in the 109s and 190’s it ain’t a gonna change; get used to it.

HT’s idea of realistic is that we put a fat bunch of bars in front of you that you can’t look around.  In real life, a pilot can make small subconscious movements of his head to look around the struts in the cockpit.  Exactly like you look around the struts in you car without really thinking about it.  This has normally been modeled in flight sims by making the bars a bit smaller than it real life. A virtual world way of trying to make the experience more like what you would have in real life.  In AH2 it is like the pilots head is rooted in cement in each view, and can only be moved slowly with the arrow or page up/down keys.

The 190s in this game are a joke.  The Dora had a massively powerful engine with 2,240 hp, and a normal fully loaded weight of 9414 lbs.  The LA7 had a 1,840 hp engine at 7308 lbs.  
 
This gives the Dora a Hp/Wt ratio of about 95% of the Lavotchkin 7. Yet look at the acceleration difference. Both planes had almost identical wing areas, 18.3 sq meters for the Dora, and 17.5 sq meters for the LA7.  The LA7 had significantly better wing loading, of 194 kg/sq meter, than the Dora’s 258 kg/sq meter.  I could be wrong here, but with all that wing and drag, the LA7 shouldn’t accelerate much faster than a Dora, given the almost identical hp/wt ratio.  The LA will of course out turn the Dora quite easily given the wing loading.

Yet we see the following acceleration rates from the Dora and the LA7 Netaces Accleration Comparison Page That the Dora’s acceleration is abysmal compared to the LA7.

The LW rides in LA's High suck; get used to it, because it won't change. And I predicte will be one of the reasons that TOD will be a big flop.

Take a Spit or a LA7.  Spitfires and LA’s flew close to 40% of the sorties in the Main Arcade  last month.  And there is a reason.


dead on target
Vote R.E. Lee '24

Offline Grits

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5332
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2005, 11:44:20 PM »
You guys claiming wild changes in plane behaviour with each patch know that HT is sitting in the office reading this after a hard day of coading and laughing at you right?

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2005, 12:19:05 AM »
Grits:

Quote
Although HTC's official response is "there are no changes in the FM", we all know how these 'official responses' are worded. For instance, Pyro commented the gunnery modelling didn't change. People were swearing that something changed in AH2beta.... then Pyro the sly devil added that it was the 'hit detetction resolution' that changed.


There have been changes. As I said, not changes to the top speed and climb rate, but to every other aspect of flight in these planes.

Offline Grits

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5332
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2005, 12:47:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
There have been changes. As I said, not changes to the top speed and climb rate, but to every other aspect of flight in these planes.


I dont feel anything different, and never have since AH2 went live. In addition I found no testable differences. Imaginary as far as I am concerned.

Offline AGO

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
      • http://www.4stormo.it
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2005, 02:08:48 AM »
The 109k is a difficult plane for good shooters.

I persist not to understand spits were added and G10 subtracted !?  :rolleyes: :mad:
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 02:11:36 AM by AGO »

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2005, 02:37:22 AM »
Quote
There have been changes. As I said, not changes to the top speed and climb rate, but to every other aspect of flight in these planes.


 So sure of it?

 In the case of the 190s, virtually every pilot who made themselves known by being 190 experts, who were still playing AH2, since my first arrival in AH1.05, has agreed that the handling is somewhat more gentle than it was - and yet, still it remains to be seen, yet to be proved.

 I was the first one to bring up the 109 destabilization issues in the a/v forums. I am very convinced that things have been changed - and yet, still I cannot exert this opinion as an absolute because of the obvious difficulties in proving a "feel" as an objective factor.

 The closest I could come to proving the above two issues as solid fact, was by using the stall-limiter angle setting as a method of measuring  the difficulty level required for a pilot to push his plane to its absolute limits of turn maneuvering - and still I find it difficult to pursuade people who remain skeptical with that fact alone.

 In the above two issues, we at least had some sort of "LW consensus" going on. However, this thread clearly shows that such consensus doesn't exist in regards to this particular issue: 109s didn't change, or rather, opinions are split.

 So I wouldn't be too sure in basing an opinion as an immovable fact - because like Grits said, when the man shows up and clarifies it one way or another, one could be in heaps of embarassment or loss of credibility.

 There could be a multitude of reasons in why some people can't maneuver 109s like they used to.

 For one thing, the MA competition has grown tougher. The abundant Spit8s Spit16s are much more powerful competiton than the usual Spit9s or Spit5s we used to fight....  the margin of time available each pilot has to finish a 1vs1 engagement in the way he wants it, is considerably shorter than it was - in which condition it is not strange to expect a pilot to behave more hastily and sloppily.... or, it is entirely possible the self-confident 'vets' we have gathered in this thread are much too overconfident in what they can do.... or they might be basing their facts upon one or two engagements which they particularly remember as being unsatisfactory - it is pretty common fact that people exaggerate the things they hate.... and on and on, yadayada.

 
 So let's try not to settle anything as a given fact.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 02:44:11 AM by Kweassa »

Offline gatt

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2441
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2005, 02:50:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
Wrong. I'm slaughtering baby seals just the same as always. Unless buff hunting (ZzZzZzZzZZ no thanks), the G10/K4 has ALWAYS been most effective with 30mm in the hands of a decent stick with good gunnery. Think you'd catch Fester/Nath/Stang/me/ with 20mm's in a G10 too often back in the day? I highly doubt it. The G10/K4 has only "lost its teeth" if you never learned how to fly it properly in the first place. End of story.
Perhaps the 109F/G2/G6(g6 always sucked...) "lost their teeth," but I haven't said anything about them up until now. For a while in AH1 the G2 was my #1 ride, and it's never been as good in AH2 as it was back then. That didn't change with any patch.


Perhaps, I should have said: their *long* teeth. I dont care what others do in the Main and how, till they try to teach others how to play, that is. I for one never loved the 30mm G-10. I flew only 1x20mm and 3x20mm 109G-10s during the last TOD's. Perhaps, who knows, you have never learned to kill with the single 20mm. Its a game, so its just a matter of taste.

BTW, I dont think the FM changed from the G-10 to the K-4. IMO, 109s, 205 and 190As have always been too unstable, compared to Ponies, Jugs etc.etc. And yes I agree, if you dont like buff hunting you cannot appreciate how good was the 3x20mm G-10. In the hands of a decent stick, that is.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 04:20:43 AM by gatt »
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2005, 05:05:17 AM »
"then Pyro the sly devil added that it was the 'hit detetction resolution' that changed. "

Now that I think of it, that is just how it seems. Sometimes the shots seem to almost as they go through the enemy but no hit flashes. I think this is a change to the better.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline ghi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2669
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2005, 05:51:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
.  The P51 got a boost of balls when AH2 came along. .

I really love reading that irl the A8 was comparable to the P47's of its day. Oh really? The A8 in AH to the P47 in AH is what a School bus is to a Viper today.


.

 
The only way i undestand this bias is cuz the  game  makes most of revenue on Norh American market , soo the main customer in satisfied. There's no reason for german planes to fly better .

Offline wrag

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3499
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2005, 08:19:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Grits
I dont feel anything different, and never have since AH2 went live. In addition I found no testable differences. Imaginary as far as I am concerned.


Then IMHO you never pushed the 109 to it's limit.  I have said before there was a HUGH change from AHI to AHII.

There WAS a snap turn as well as some other moves you could do in the 109s in AHI that are no longer doable in AHII.

I KNOW because I tried several of those moves the 1st day AHII came out and the plane wallowed and went into an unstable dive. or just lost control and flopped around!  Speed you try it don't matter.  Can't do em in AHII.  Got shot down too!

Yes you can still zoom and boom and stay fast and shoot, but that's about it.

Where you could turn some and do quick nimble moves before now you just wallow and flop.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline monteini

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 82
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2005, 08:32:49 AM »
I now you lw guys like to complain but just look at the k/d rates d-9 is 1.5 and K-4 is 1.4 both these numbers beat all spits, p47's, p-38's, f6f, f4u's not perked, hurries, yakes, la's and p-51's so I dont see why your complaining.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 08:36:19 AM by monteini »

storch

  • Guest
Observations on new 109s
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2005, 08:44:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Then IMHO you never pushed the 109 to it's limit.  I have said before there was a HUGH change from AHI to AHII.

There WAS a snap turn as well as some other moves you could do in the 109s in AHI that are no longer doable in AHII.

I KNOW because I tried several of those moves the 1st day AHII came out and the plane wallowed and went into an unstable dive. or just lost control and flopped around!  Speed you try it don't matter.  Can't do em in AHII.  Got shot down too!

Yes you can still zoom and boom and stay fast and shoot, but that's about it.

Where you could turn some and do quick nimble moves before now you just wallow and flop.
you will never convince them, they are all knowing and their word is law.  the spit is the be all, end all.  in fact if they brought the spit to bear today it would defeat even the mighty F22 while it's driver was applying makeup at 390mph in the diamond dave lane.  the only reason they don't because they are far too modest to embarass the USAF.