Author Topic: Collisions (Read 1135 times)

JCLerch · « **Reply #30 on:** December 20, 2005, 09:21:01 AM »

As an aside, in the real world, a very SIMILAR problem exists on the observations of simultaneous events.

The topic of Simultaneity is address in the General Theory of Relativity. For reference see the following essay, section C

http://astro.physics.sc.edu/selfpacedunits/Unit56.html

In real life, information can only travel as fast as the speed of light, so two events (flash bulbs going off, or lightening strikes) that are separated by some distance, can appear to observers at various locations, to happen at various times.

Specifically one observer can measure the two events to happen at the same exact moment in time, another observer may measure that first one event occurred, then the second event occurred. BOTH MEASURMENTS ARE ACCURATE!

This same problem translates to the internet, but in this case information travels much slower than the speed of light. Consequently the effect on simultaneous events is GREATLY MAGNIFIED.

The bottom line is, the fine folks at HTC have done everything they can to reduce the problem, but as smart as they are they can not violate the rules of physics.

In the end, it IS expected that two or more players will observe the same event as having different results. This is a physical fact of life, a game played on the internet is still governed by the laws of physics.

What I find impressive is that HTC has done as well as they have, given what they have to work with.

Players mostly complain about collisions between airframes, but rarely do you read of complaints on collisions between an aircraft and incoming bullets.

IMO, here's a big thumbs up

to HTC for working with equations in 4 dimensions (3 space and 1 time) and producing (for the most part) a very realistic presentation! WTF go gents!

Lye-El · « **Reply #31 on:** December 20, 2005, 11:00:47 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ujustdied
i have been looking at this and i have been noticing that if u Shoot to close to ur enemy say 10D and closer ur ammo backfires or somthing and u get dammage. i have noticed this in the DA.

You are aware if you are close and hitting an aircraft pieces come off that aircraft. You hit these pieces an besides a "BRRANNGG" sound you can also incur damage.

Hehe...ammo backfires..always wondered what that BANG sound was when I pulled the trigger.

WMLute · « **Reply #32 on:** December 20, 2005, 11:10:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Larry
And jones I have taken damage many many time when some one ramed me and geting the message that they hit me and they go fly away while I fall down to the ground.

then they shot you.

pure and simple

the way HT has done it, is really the only viable way to do it.

here's a great example of what 2 diff. FE's "SEE"

in the picture, look at growler1.
on HIS FE he's launching from from the carrier.
on MY FE he's 300-500 feet away (ish) takin' off in thin air.

if HTC did it any other way, that spit that flew by you 200' out on your FE is nose on and ramming you on THEIR front end. the way you want it, you'd both die from the ram, even though what you saw was a plane 200' away.

Larry · « **Reply #33 on:** December 20, 2005, 11:23:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by WMLute
then they shot you.
pure and simple
the way HT has done it, is really the only viable way to do it.
here's a great example of what 2 diff. FE's "SEE"
in the picture, look at growler1.
on HIS FE he's launching from from the carrier.
on MY FE he's 300-500 feet away (ish) takin' off in thin air.
if HTC did it any other way, that spit that flew by you 200' out on your FE is nose on and ramming you on THEIR front end. the way you want it, you'd both die from the ram, even though what you saw was a plane 200' away.

Thats two different things hes takeing off not shooting at you. And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.

WMLute · « **Reply #34 on:** December 20, 2005, 12:26:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Larry
Thats two different things hes takeing off not shooting at you. And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.

you know he wasn't shooting how?

what was the message your received? i.e. who collided w/ who?

where's the film?

what you describe reminds me of a post a guy made about how field ack couldn't be killed with .50 cal's.

he ranted for a paragraph, going on and on about his hundreds of hits that he had on the ack gun and provided the film. HTC reviewed it, and only a couple rounds out of the hundreds he sprayed actually hit the target. But HE was SURE that hundreds upon hundreds of rounds landed, and gosh darn it, AH must be bugged, and the ack gun was porked, and whaa whaa whaa whaa whaa.

Turns out he just couldn't aim.

I'm thinking ya' dealing with a similar situation here. That lala prob. shot you, plain and simple.

oh, and my pic. was to illustrate the point that we all "SEE" different things on our FE's, and how your idea of a ram model would be a disaster. HTC has ram's modeled the best possible way w/ the way the internet is setup.

Clifra Jones · « **Reply #35 on:** December 20, 2005, 12:36:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Larry
Thats two different things hes takeing off not shooting at you. And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.

Larry, you can continue your exercises in Preconceptual Science all you want but it will not changes the facts of the situation.

If you do not see "you have collided" in your text buffer then any damage you are taking is due to being shot NOT from someone colliding with you.

Just to make it simpler, the only time damage is incurred due to a collision is when the message "you have collided" appears in the text buffer.

Just because you don't see tracers or muzzle flashes does not mean he's not shooting at you. You probably got the updates to your FE for the muzzle flashes at the same time you got the "blow up" message.

I have had many instances of me colliding with someone else, them colliding with me and both of us colliding with each other, not once was there any confusion as to why I took damage or why he did/did not take damage. (at least on my part)

This discussion is pointless because some of you have made up your minds and no amount of explanation or logic by anyone is going to change it. IMO HT wasted his valuable time putting those messages in the text buffer because with some people it has only created more confusion than it's stopped. What does he need to do, put a message in the text buffer "you were killed by weapons fire"?

Clifra Jones · « **Reply #36 on:** December 20, 2005, 12:41:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Larry
Jones what your saying makes no since at all. I have a film of me coming about 5-10ft away from some bombers and I die. I didnt see a ram on my computer so why did I die? What HTC means by "seeing" the ram means if I come up behind you and ram you as long as your not looking back I get the damage. And in the HO/ram whoever shoots last before the ram gets the damage.

Very simple explanation. HE SHOT YOU!

And to clarify another of your misconceptions, when HT uses the term SEEING he is not talking about what your eyes see. He is talking about what the Front End program running on our PC SEES. Where your head position or view is, is irrelevant.

One more time, if you don't see "you have collided" in your text buffer any damage you take is NOT caused by a collision.

BALSUR · « **Reply #37 on:** December 20, 2005, 01:17:32 PM »

So, would lthis also explain when I am flying and a con behind me is 1K on my screen but can actually be D600 on his screen?

hitech · « **Reply #38 on:** December 20, 2005, 01:56:30 PM »

Larry: You can talk about collisions all you wish. But I strongly suggest you address HTC ,ME and other players in a respectfull maner.

HiTech

Karnak · « **Reply #39 on:** December 20, 2005, 02:14:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BALSUR
So, would lthis also explain when I am flying and a con behind me is 1K on my screen but can actually be D600 on his screen?

Yes, it is the same reason.

Larry · « **Reply #40 on:** December 20, 2005, 02:42:39 PM »

Deleted

Lye-El · « **Reply #41 on:** December 20, 2005, 04:10:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Larry
And no I have had a LA7 come right up behind my B17s not shooting and rams me while Im shotting him with the tail gun. My bomber blows up and he flys off and comes in again and I kill him. Hmmm sounds like yall are wrong again. Why did I die when He ramed me? Its because I watched him do it and I was shooting at him.

An enemy aircraft flys up your six and hes not going to shoot? He, perchance just wanted to see your smiling face in the tailgun position? What other reason would he have to chase a bomber?

The whole thing boils down to what your COMPUTER sees vs. what his COMPUTER sees. That computer could be half a world away or with connection through the internet that is poor. Your computer is looking at a 360 degree environment so you don't have to "see" a collision with your eyes. Your COMPUTER and the other guys COMPUTER are NOT synced together. Everybody sees an approxmation of the 3d environment that is updated at intervals. Not real time. You saw him collide between updates. On his computer he pulled over you. The reason he shot you is he could shoot better than you. You missed. He didn't. And he probably had his tracers turned off. I do.

Of course you got this well versed understanding of the eccentricities of the internet and everybody else is wrong. What else could it be?

Larry · « **Reply #42 on:** December 20, 2005, 04:34:31 PM »

Deleted? Wow I guess you dont want to answer why.

Lye-El tell me something since theres so much lag that a guy can ram my plane from behind and fly away can get a kill on the same laggy connection/sever?

Karnak · « **Reply #43 on:** December 20, 2005, 05:19:38 PM »

TK,

I am not sure, but it seems to me that you are having difficulty with the basic concept of two realities.

When that La-7 flew up your bomber's six and "rammed" it you are interpeting the event from your perspective, i.e. he was the active participant in the ramming. In actuality you failed to avoid a collision with him. The onerous cannot be on him to avoid the collision when he had no way of knowing about it or realistically predicting it. That takes some getting used to, but from the program's point of view that is how it works.

It is completely irrelevant who's nose hits who. All that matters is if your computer detects a collision on your FE and if his computer detects a collision on his FE.

On his FE he may have broken off before colliding, or shot your bomber out of the way, so to his computer, and by extension, him, there was no collision. If he had collided with the version of your bomber on his FE you would have seen him just break up for no apparent reason on yours somewhere behind you.

One thing that people have said that is wrong, the number of players has nothing to do with it. IL-2 may have both aircraft go down in a collision, but if so it will suffer from people being able to ram and kill with the ramee never knowing that there was an immenient collision. The difference is that IL-2 is not a persistant environment so it doesn't matter that much. Lag is primarily caused by the time it takes data to move over the internet, which is about 60% to 80% the speed of light.