Author Topic: free Dmitry!!!!!!  (Read 3399 times)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:


LOL!  I guess they did just that.  Of course, it was completely illegal.

AKDejaVu

Not from my understanding.  He cracked it in Russia, and his actions weren't illegal there.  What the heck do US laws have to do with something the happens in sovereign state of Russia?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2001, 06:04:00 PM »
The problem with prosecuting Dmitry is that the software he sold is "dual use".
Yes, it allows someone to crack an Adobe ebook and distribute the contents, but it also has legitimate uses.
Copyright laws allow people to make a backup of material for their own use. If you have a music cd, you can legaly copy it, and use the copy whilst putting the original in storage for safekeeping.
The Adobe ebook format doesn't allow that, and puts even more restrictions on the consumers ability to view the copyrighted material they have paid for.
Under Adobe's system, you can only read the book you have bought on the computer you bought it on. You can't transfer it to any other pc or handheld device, and when the pc you used for the transaction goes, the book you have bought goes with it. In some cases upgrading your pc will cause the book to become unreadable.
The Adobe system also only works on PCs and Macs, not on many handheld devices that are commonly used to read ebooks. The software the Russian company sells allows you to decrypt the ebook and use it on any system, or even print it out. Whilst the software can be used for illegal acts, like decrypting a book and distrubiting it, it can also be used for perfectly legal activities like decrypting the book and reading it on a format of your choice.
I wouldn't pretend that Dmitry developed his system out of altruism, or that it isn't being used to beat copyright protection, but then again I wouldn't pretend that a great many cd writers aren't used to illegaly copy software and music, or that Napster wasn't used to illegaly distribute copyrighted material. However, prosecuting people because they sell a device that can be used to break the law, even though that isn't it's only function, seems like a very dangerous area to get into.
Maxell for encouraging home taping? JVC for encouraging pirate movie distribution? Yamaha for encouraging illegal software and music distribution? Smith and Wesson for encouraging murder?

Offline Dmitry

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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
You forget that he never sold it!! He never attempted to sell it... If FBI abd Adobe wants to make a case they have to make it right - go after company wich sold it... but I guess now everyone can get this prog for free   :rolleyes: so whats the point in entrapment the guy who recieves 100$ a months for doing such things? He is only employe of a company that screwed up...
I guess this world is the place when little things can be steped over and crash as to make an example... No one still cares that I can have all Adobe line that worth if bought legaly around 5000-7000 $ US...

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
He never sold it but his company sold it?
I think I'll grow some marijuana and sell it from my company's website.  Then when the police come I'll tell them it was the company doing it, not me.   :)

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2001, 07:35:00 PM »
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Here we have a case where someone tried to provide valuable information and figured they needed to hit the company with a pie in the face to get them to accept the information. I agree the program should not have been sold, but beyond that I don't see a crime here. At worst they should have to give up any profits made on it and pay a fine. Having the FBI holding someone is ridiculous.

No Yoj.  Here is a case where someone tried to provide valuable information and did so.  The corporation decided not to do anything with it.  That is their perogative.  This is not some kind of intrusion/security bug that causes vulnerabilities to users systems.. this was simply encryption of copyrighted material.

The selling of the program to do this violated those copyright laws.  End of story.  Absolutely zero nobelness to the issue.

 
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The problem with prosecuting Dmitry is that the software he sold is "dual use".
Yes, it allows someone to crack an Adobe ebook and distribute the contents, but it also has legitimate uses. Copyright laws allow people to make a backup of material for their own use. If you have a music cd, you can legaly copy it, and use the copy whilst putting the original in storage for safekeeping.

Yes you can... and the E-Book issues can be adressed in a very specific way.. TO ADOBE! REFUSE TO PURCHASE A PRODUCT WITH SUCH BLATANT SHORTCOMINGS!  Feeling that it is OK to make a shoddy product freeware is not the answer.  I could care less what the other features of the program are...  if you think its main intention is to do anything other than provide free access to ADOBE's material then you are dillusional.

 
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You forget that he never sold it!! He never attempted to sell it... If FBI abd Adobe wants to make a case they have to make it right - go after company wich sold it

LOL!  Yeah.. I'm sure it was sold against his will.. and his name wasn't meantioned anywhere in regards to it.  I'm sure he is simply an innocent victim that accidently cracked ADOBE's encryption, then inadvertantly wrote a program that would do it in a user friendly environment while totally not noticing that it was a marketable program (English Version?) at any time.  This poor poor victim.

 
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so whats the point in entrapment the guy who recieves 100$ a months for doing such things?

Entrapment?  I don't believe there was any entrapment involved in this case.  This wasn't a sting operation.  At least, not according to anything I've read.

The main gist might be this:  Don't write illegal software in a foreign country that has no laws governing it, sell it, then go to the country where you sold it and act as if it doesn't matter.

You'll notice the FBI did not go to Russia to take this gentleman into custody.. he came into a country who's laws he had already knowingly violated.

 
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I guess this world is the place when little things can be steped over and crash as to make an example... No one still cares that I can have all Adobe line that worth if bought legaly around 5000-7000 $ US...

Actually.. quite a few people care about this.  You are confusing caring about it with having no control over it.  Basically, you can do whatever you want within the borders of your country.  We just advise you to stay there.

AKDejaVu

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2001, 07:58:00 PM »
Russian logic scares me.  To sum up my limited knowledge, it goes like this:

You wouldn't sell it to me at what I offered, so I will steal it.  Plus, we couldn't patronize you because of our infrastructure anyway, so it is OK.

I hacked your software, then tried to blackmail you into me not releasing it, but you did not accept my price, so I went ahead and sold it, because in lieu of "Controlling Authority" it is quite legal here.  I visit your country to promote my illegal product, and you arrest me!


Makes the five year plan sound down right reasonable.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2001, 08:33:00 PM »
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Yes you can... and the E-Book issues can be adressed in a very specific way.. TO ADOBE! REFUSE TO PURCHASE A PRODUCT WITH SUCH BLATANT SHORTCOMINGS! Feeling that it is OK to make a shoddy product freeware is not the answer. I could care less what the other features of the program are... if you think its main intention is to do anything other than provide free access to ADOBE's material then you are dillusional.
The shoddy Adobe product is actually freeware. Go to their site and you can download it and use it for free. The encryption is on the books you buy, not on the reader.
Dmitry is not re selling Adobe's software, or even the books it protects, the software he is selling is his own copyrighted work, that allows people to decrypt things that have been encrypted.
You seem to have missed the point of the argument (an appeal against this law regarding DVD encryption is currently underway in the sates). The product Dmitry, or his company, was selling, allows you to do something that is not illegal by itself. Decrypting a book you have purchased is not illegal. Using Dmitry's software to decrypt a book you have bought is not illegal. Distributing it after you have decrypted it is illegal. Basically the law targets people that make software that allows decryption, because they get nowhere targeting the people who actually do the redistribution.
Prosecuting every little toerag with a cd writer who copies games for his mates is impossible, so now the law is starting to target people make tools that allow you to do the copying.
Under the digital media copyright laws in the US, it would be possible to prosecute somebody who makes a no cd patch for a game, or someone who finds a way to allow you to copy a protected cd, even though copying the cd for safekeeping is legal. The law is framed so that it makes it a crime to sell tools that allow people to commit legal acts.
In fact, the use of the product Dmitry sold is in no way illegal, though what you do after you have used it may be.
As to boycotting the Adobe ebook format, that is certainly easy at the moment. However, in the future it will be possible for all material to be distributed in ways that allow little freedom to the end user, and anyone who develops a product that allows the user more control will face prosecution.
Will you be so blasé when you can only get dvds that are playable only on 1 dvd player, or cds that can only be used in 1 cd player? What about when all software is tied to the pc you bought it for, and an upgrade means you have to buy all new software?
Think it can't happen? The MPAA testimony in a recent court case involving DVD copy protection claimed
"a person obtains the legal right to view a DVD only after purchasing the DVD and also a DVD-player licensed through DVD-CCA.
The studios have further testified that such person only acquires the right to view the material on selected players and that such persons are not thereby authorized to access the material on the DVD to make a fair use, or any non-infringing use, or such material"

The Digital Millenium Copyright Act changes a whole host of previously upheld consumer rights to access material they have bought in the way they want to. It does it not by changing their rights, but by making it illegal to sell (or give away) software or equipment that allows them to exercise those rights.
Home taping, recording TV programs with VCRs etc have all been ruled acceptable use by courts in America. VCRs are already threatened by technology that allows the signal to be watchable, but un-tapeable. (I believe the system is called macrovision?)
At the moment it doesn't work that well, because it doesn't block all videos and you can buy devices to circumvent it, but such devices are illegal and it's only a matter of time before steps are taken to stop their sale.

A final point. If practices like home taping, and archiving material you have bought are legal, but can be stopped by prosecuting people who sell things to enable you to do them, where does that leave one of America's greatest "freedoms", the right to bear arms? Does the second ammendment grant the right to sell arms? You may be allowed to keep them, but it doesn't mean much if everyone who tries to sell them to you is in prison, does it?

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Nashwan ]

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Nashwan ]

Offline mietla

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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2001, 08:40:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gadfly:
Hey, Boroda, Why don't you and your pals come over for a visit.

Both Dmitry and Boroda have exactly the same rating (    ). Coincidence?.. I think not   :).

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]

Offline mietla

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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2001, 08:50:00 PM »
I'm not sure about the legality of the arrest of a Russian citizen on the US soil for alleged crimes committed against the US law outside of the US. Have no idea, may be legal may be not, but trying to portrait this guy as a do-gooder, who is just trying to spread the "knowledge" and warn the public is just plain silly.

Is Dmitry intelligent? Probably. He cracked this code (childish or not), Is he smart coming here, nope, he ain't.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
What nashwan said.

Basically, even under US law, he hasn't done something that is illegal. Under Russian law, he's also quite clear.

Big business talking to government officials and you have this, a small guy arrested.

Even if it was proved illegal, it'd still be a state vs company, not state vs individual, issue.

Cracking an encryption is not illegal in Russia. He did that. that corresponds to the argument of "growing marijuana" - which, opposite to the cracking bit, IS illegal. So the two do not compare.

If growing it was legal and you let your company sell it (and this was illegal) then the company is doing the crime, and thus the company is the one that gets punished.

What can I say? There is a MASSIVE attempt by the larger corporations and governments to somehow "control" the individuals in the comp. sci. industry that comes up with something nifty. Governments and large corporations are scared to death of the at-home hobby people who do stuff for fun - and do it better than their well paid software engineers. They're scared of people who not only come up with a new idea but also has the knowledge to implement it.

Information wants to be free  :).

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2001, 07:46:00 AM »
LOL! you guys are really quite amazing.

He did nothing illegal?  LOL!

AKDejaVu

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2001, 08:14:00 AM »
AKDejaVu, what illegal acts do you believe he carried out?

Offline Dmitry

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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
There are a lot of issues that arrise along this disscussion. A few things really piss me off big time. Backing up your information is what we want to do. We want to back up that expansive 40-50$ game CD, or even some expansive programm that costs multy hundreds of dollars. We DONT want to loose those CD's, we want to enjoy our erned right to use the software we bought. But companies dont want us to have such copyes, because we might as well distribute them to our friends or even try to sell them. So they put number of types of protection on poor CD's... There are so many CD protection that having a virtual CD drive becomes useeless. You cant copy them and you cannot distribute them. But there is always a solution and there always be one - create programms that will allow you to make a copy of protected CD. Arent you glad? arent you happy that you can have a backup now? Wouldnt you say that those companies are life savers? they sure think that of themselfs. Its great to have options but it really stinks to be denied of every one of them.

He didnt cracked the software, he didnt sell it and for sure he gave option for those who had none. Opppsss.. Not him, but COMPANY where he only works.

What happened now is exactly what shouldnt... now every person that needs decryption can have one for FREE...
  :rolleyes:

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:


No Yoj. Here is a case where someone tried to provide valuable information and did so. The corporation decided not to do anything with it. That is their perogative.

AKDejaVu

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]

Woah!  You KNOW this?  You know they noted and decided not to act on the information?  Or did they simply not pay attention?  Have you ever tried to deal with Microsoft? I have - you need to set off a tactical nuke on their doorstep to get their attention.  

As for copyrights, did it violate international or Russian copyright laws?  If not, are you saying the rest of the world must be subject to US law?  If true, then the reverse should be true.  Every American who ever drank alcohol should be liable for arrest for breaking Islamic law.  I don't think that can of worms needs opening.

- Yoj

Offline Checksix

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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2001, 11:56:00 AM »
boroda

maybe ien can loan them that weird bogus rich roberts chracter and get him involved with this stuff too.  :D

isnt he the one they been usin as fake front man pretendin he officially represents them?  ;)

i wonder who at ien would be dumb enuf to do that.  :eek:

what a bunch.  :rolleyes: