Author Topic: Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release (Read 10367 times)

Guppy35 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 15, 2006, 05:33:10 PM »

I took up a 109G6 the other night to see what the fuss was about. I actually landed kills in it. I don't do that in 38s or Spits very often.

Flew a G14 last night. Got in behind a Tiffie, tapped the gun button and BOOM the Tiffie blew up. Killed a Spit 8 after that and an LA before being rammed by another LA.

The 109s seemed fine to me. I know I've flown the Emil most of all and have fun in that one down low and slow too. I had a lot of fun flying Emils against the Spits and Hurri's in AvA when the early B of B planeset was there.

Now, I have to keep in mind I'm a lousy shot and an average stick, but I just don't see what the fuss is about.

The only thing I can figure is that folks expect 109s and 190s to knife fight the same as Spits can down low and slow and I just don't think that's what they are best at.

I do believe Luftwhining has reached a new level lately though and part of it seems to stem from some belief that the LW iron should naturally be superior to everything it comes up against.

I guess in the end I look at it this way. My lifelong history interests have been Spits and USAAF birds in particular the 38. So that's what I "fly". If I was a LW junkie I'd fly LW stuff. Either way I'd make the best of it because that's where my interest lies. and quit grumbling about how my particular favorite ride isn't what I believe it should be.

KONG1 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2006, 05:38:33 PM »

I disagree with everyone.

SuperDud · « **Reply #47 on:** February 15, 2006, 06:45:20 PM »

I disagree with KONG and myself.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:00:11 PM »

This "we axis are so experienced" comes from earlie fighter simulations where the axis planes really sukked.....

But not in today games still the image hangs. But when i see apar or doom fly axis stuff i know im sure.

generaly it climbs like rockets is very manouvrable and good acceleration.
Not to forget 1 ping boem guns.
wich work very good in close snapshots.

for most planes counts a good pilots gets all out of it a noob dies alot easier no matter what plane he flies he makes that stupid mistake.

Kweassa · « **Reply #49 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:02:04 PM »

Quote

The only thing I can figure is that folks expect 109s and 190s to knife fight the same as Spits can down low and slow and I just don't think that's what they are best at.

So you're saying people who've been flying 109s for years still can't tell the difference between how a Spit fights and how a 109s fights, and the complaints are caused by doofuses who try to outturn everything in 109 and 190s - based on a few sorties.

Quote

I do believe Luftwhining has reached a new level lately though and part of it seems to stem from some belief that the LW iron should naturally be superior to everything it comes up against.

Some dicussions may have gone in that direction. This matter however, did not.

Quote

I guess in the end I look at it this way. My lifelong history interests have been Spits and USAAF birds in particular the 38. So that's what I "fly". If I was a LW junkie I'd fly LW stuff. Either way I'd make the best of it because that's where my interest lies. and quit grumbling about how my particular favorite ride isn't what I believe it should be.

It's particularly easy to comment as you would when one's own favorite ride is always pretty much spot on (or in some cases even better than) what one believes it should be.

However, when a 109 at a co-E status loses a fight to a P-47 in vertical looping due to loss of stability control at high AoA during the upward travel and reversal, whereas the P-47 could simply pull down the flaps and gain an almost irreversible advantage during the elongated vertical turn against a plane with better pure turn rate, better power:weight ration, and only half its weight.. it's pretty difficult to "quit grumbling".

Since you're an avid fan of the Spits and P-38s, let me put in terms you may understand:

Imagine how it would be like, if outturning a Fw190 in your precious Spitfire, was as difficult as fighting Spitfires in your beloved P-38G in a low and slow deadlock contest. If trying to simply outturn a Fw190 in a Spit, which doesn't even use rolls but just simply goes into a tightest turn possible, was so damned difficult and skill-demanding, then I have a hunch that it wouldn't be so easy to 'make the best of it.' (Then someone would come along and say he upped a Spit and killed 10 planes in a sortie, so he feels nothing's wrong with the Spit)

I guess in the end, that's basically it for us "Luftwhiners".

Guppy35 · « **Reply #50 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:28:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
So you're saying people who've been flying 109s for years still can't tell the difference between how a Spit fights and how a 109s fights, and the complaints are caused by doofuses who try to outturn everything in 109 and 190s - based on a few sorties.

Some dicussions may have gone in that direction. This matter however, did not.

It's particularly easy to comment as you would when one's own favorite ride is always pretty much spot on (or in some cases even better than) what one believes it should be.

However, when a 109 at a co-E status loses a fight to a P-47 in vertical looping due to loss of stability control at high AoA during the upward travel and reversal, whereas the P-47 could simply pull down the flaps and gain an almost irreversible advantage during the elongated vertical turn against a plane with better pure turn rate, better power:weight ration, and only half its weight.. it's pretty difficult to "quit grumbling".

Since you're an avid fan of the Spits and P-38s, let me put in terms you may understand:

Imagine how it would be like, if outturning a Fw190 in your precious Spitfire, was as difficult as fighting Spitfires in your beloved P-38G in a low and slow deadlock contest. If trying to simply outturn a Fw190 in a Spit, which doesn't even use rolls but just simply goes into a tightest turn possible, was so damned difficult and skill-demanding, then I have a hunch that it wouldn't be so easy to 'make the best of it.' (Then someone would come along and say he upped a Spit and killed 10 planes in a sortie, so he feels nothing's wrong with the Spit)

I guess in the end, that's basically it for us "Luftwhiners".

What I'm saying is these guys at HTC have been doing this for a long time. They seem to know what they're doing. I'm sure they have all the documents and stats out there they can find plus every last bit of data that the 'experts' here throw at them.

Yet the 'experts' are telling them that they've got it wrong. Based on what? Something they've found that fits with what they believe a certain plane can do.

Wander into the arena every night lately and all you see on 200 is HTC is screwing the Luftwaffe fans.

Not one of us flew combat in a WW2 plane that I know of. Any of us 'experts' are just passing on our interpretation of what we think it should be like. I see guys landing kills all the time in 109s, 190s etc. There are some guys that really can make them dance. So is it the modeling or the pilot?

Ultimately who gets to decide how it's gonna work? Last I checked it was HTC since it's their game.

So based on the heading of this thread, then HTC is wrong and the 'experts' here are right.

When I fly the Emil I have fun...but ya know what it's not really an Me109E. It's just pretend, like everything else in this game. When I flew the G6 and G14 after all the grumbling, I expected it to feel and fly awful. It didn't. I'm not going to lie about it. It was fun. Same goes for the 190A5

But again, it's the heading of the thread that set the tone. HTC you are wrong. We know better so you better fix the 109s and 190s cause we don't like em.

Shifty · « **Reply #51 on:** February 15, 2006, 08:30:00 PM »

Maybe you guys should dig up Kurt Tank, and Willie Messerschmitt , and beat the hell out of em You seem to think theres some personal evil plot against the LW planes. Blame the designers of the aircraft. Or blame the designers of the game. You guys act like it's the Allied players fault your ride isn't up to your expectations.

Kweassa, I know your experiance and knowledge of all this is vast, and I do respect your opinon. I got to ask if you know a P-47 is going to best your 109 in a scenario like you discribed..... Why not ensure you don't get in that position, the same way you will never follow a Spit through a couple of flat turns? I do know what your saying though. I remember when it happened to me once in the CT. I even had an altitude and energy advantage on Shane, and he pretty much spanked my 109 with his P-47.

I will tell you the average P-47 driver won't be able to pull that off. Theres more involved than dropping flaps. I've been trying to figure it out since Shane did it to me. I'm just now getting proficient with the Jug in the vertiucal. However if the 109 has a wingman , and you don't....... Its dirt nap time.

You can tell when your flying a Jug if the LW guy is any good. The good ones will use your wieght against you and have some paitence. Then kill you right when your Jug becomes a rock.

The newer LW pilots seem to think just because your in a P-47 your meat on the table. So they get careless in the vertical , and even when turning. They don't consider lighter gunloads , turning off combat trim , and such. I think some of them just see a whale with wings.

Glasses · « **Reply #52 on:** February 15, 2006, 10:24:11 PM »

Yes we all know the Allies used alien technology that allowed a heavier aircraft with less thrust to weight ratio to out maneuveres higher thrust to weight aircraft, yeah those Germans didn't know how to make airplanes......

I remember back when AH1 was released with a true flight model that had almost all the aircraft have acelerated stall, airplanes had really high turning circles at highspeeds, P-51s Bled E and could be made to Bleed E same goes for the 190A8s and Spitfires, then HT changed it to the simpler more so FM back when AH was 30 bucks a month.....

Then they dropped it to 15 a month and people came in the bucket load. But the simpler no adverse flight condition FM remained . Then comes AH2 and the LW fighters have an FM more aching to AH 1.03 and the Allied rides have the same FM of the 1.04 and beyond.

I still remember when Pyro found out that the JUg had 300lbs overweight he made a quick patch to patch it up, while some other things were being accurately addressed about LW aircraft, that were told wrongly modeled and proved so by many others.

Now AH2 the 190s/109s have the thick bars in the cockpit that looks like you're looking through a toilet paper roll and the wobbly FM the inpotent cannons and both aircraft that could deploy in the case of the 190 one notch at 300 and the 109 at almost 400mph, are overlooked.......

Yeah and they know it'll remain the same,cus LW sucking =$$$$$

Guppy35 · « **Reply #53 on:** February 16, 2006, 12:18:57 AM »

Glasses, I saw this quote on another board where they were discussing the fact that Montgomery Burns of the Simpsons was apparently a P47 pilot.

C. Montgomery Burns
Quote:
"Ah, the Luftwaffe. The Washington Generals of the History Channel."

I thought you might appreciate it

Glasses · « **Reply #54 on:** February 16, 2006, 01:24:26 AM »

I think that was Homer that said it while he was sitting with Bart and he switched over the TV to the History channel which had Stukas on and then he said said quote

bozon · « **Reply #55 on:** February 16, 2006, 02:36:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Glasses
I still remember when Pyro found out that the JUg had 300lbs overweight he made a quick patch to patch it up,

iirc, the D11 was 300 lbs too light. The weight was added after people complained it was a spitbolt.
I think it was something about the ammo load not included.

Bozon

Wilbus · « **Reply #56 on:** February 16, 2006, 04:07:53 AM »

Kweassa said pretty much everything I wanted to say in his posts but I will add a few things anyway.

Kweassa

Quote
I will tell you the average P-47 driver won't be able to pull that off. Theres more involved than dropping flaps. I've been trying to figure it out since Shane did it to me. I'm just now getting proficient with the Jug in the vertiucal. However if the 109 has a wingman , and you don't....... Its dirt nap time.

You can tell when your flying a Jug if the LW guy is any good. The good ones will use your wieght against you and have some paitence. Then kill you right when your Jug becomes a rock. The newer LW pilots seem to think just because your in a P-47 your meat on the table. So they get careless in the vertical , and even when turning. They don't consider lighter gunloads , turning off combat trim , and such. I think some of them just see a whale with wings.

Well, if you wanna mix in wingmen you can just turn it around. If the P47 has a wingman and you don't, it's nap time. Not a very clever statement really

Lighter gunloads, (combat trim doesn't affect performance btw, it only takes less load of your stick hand and makes it easier to aim).

Tell me, take the two planes we're discussing. Say a 109 K4 vs a P47D40.

The 109 weights in (empty) at about 4900 lbs. The P47 weights in at about 9950 lbs.

28,16 lbs/square feet.

That's 203% more weight.

109 K uses an engine of about 1550 hp for takeoff (1800 with emergency boost?)

P47 has 2535 hp power plant which is a hell of alot more HP. However, it is not 203% more HP thus the power/weight ratio is far greater in the 109.

33,3 lbs/square feet wingloading.

Also, wingloading is far greater in the P47. None of this is noticable once the P47 pops its flaps (already at 400mph if it wants to).

Max loaded at just above 7400 lbs the 109 still weights 2500lbs less then an empty P47. (although the wingloading is greater on a fully loaded 109 then of an empty P47).

Guppy.

Quote
What I'm saying is these guys at HTC have been doing this for a long time. They seem to know what they're doing. I'm sure they have all the documents and stats out there they can find plus every last bit of data that the 'experts' here throw at them. Yet the 'experts' are telling them that they've got it wrong. Based on what? Something they've found that fits with what they believe a certain plane can do.

Yes they have done this for a long time. But your certainty as for them having all info possibly available is somewhat funny. Although we never see what sources they use it's been proven time over time some of the experts here have far more info.

Crumpp is just a good example of that as far as the 190's go. There is no way HTC would ever spend that much time investigating one airplane, which I can definatly understand. However, they've gotten alot of free info from people like Crumpp.

It has been proven the 109 flaps don't deploy at as high speeds as they should. The last chart I saw posted on the BBS showed 10 degree flap movement at almost 800 km/h (bout 490mph). Be it this high or not (doubt we'll ever see them deploy at that speed, right or wrong). Now the last thing we heard when the last patch was released is "the 109 flaps were overlooked". Well hot damn please forgive us for being frustrated.

Then comes the stability issue, possible the biggest issue at this time but Kweassa has already mentioned it.

As for landing ## in planes. So what? I've landed 10 kills in a 202.

I don't really feel this is wrong entirely "against" the LW. I think HTC need to take a serious look at the entire FM in AH when it comes to stability and low speed handeling. the 110 is a prime example of this as it is THE single best LW dogfighter in AH. It's the LW plane that can best compete with most allied planes in a pure turnfight. Same thing goes for every twin in the game, they feel too good, way too good.

hogenbor · « **Reply #57 on:** February 16, 2006, 04:24:55 AM »

I can't resist the temptation so I'll jump in.

It is possible to land kills in LW planes and you don't have to be an ace to do it. I can. Even the stability problems can be overcome. But it's a fact that it is much, MUCH easier to harvest a large number of kills in a Spit XVI than to do it in a 109K.

If this is realistic I DON'T KNOW, see Guppy's statement. But I tend to agree that the LW planes are undermodeled, on purpose or not. The Fw-190 in here is a dog while historical data suggests a Spit IX is a perfect match for a contemporary Fw-190A. The data matches and pilots who have flown both planes think so too.

P.s I hate you Wilbus for shooting me down twice in quick succession yesterday. That a 109G-2 cannot hang with a Ki-84, I accept but how the hell did you pull off that reversal when I met you in a Spit XVI a few moments later? I never met someone who could do that. The only way I can think off is to reverse with all your might (burning off ALL your E, normally an unwise move) to get a one shot opportunity (which turned out to be enough). I didn't film it, can you tell me how you did that?

That I managed to land 4 kills later in said Spit XVI was not much consolation

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #58 on:** February 16, 2006, 05:44:00 AM »

go fly il2 the german stuff turns like zero's also always at monky alt a real cherry pick fest for them.
the luftwhiners did get a great influence over there.

btw wow 10 degree flap at 490 mph and than whine about p38 whiners for auto retract on a flap made for that purpose.

so the fowler flap must be made from balsa wood while the 109's made of krup uber titanium offcourse

Wilbus · « **Reply #59 on:** February 16, 2006, 05:55:22 AM »

Just posted the data from the chart Bug, right or wrong.

Hogenbor, don't hate me

I fly on 100% feeling, not sure if I filmed it (don't think I did) but will gladly go and fly some with you in the DA and see if I make the same reversal.
I fly the Ki84 as aggressive as possible, going for quick kills then moving on to the next. I've become very used to flying it against "gangs". It suits my flying style in the MA perfectly which is why its almost the only plane I fly part from LW planes.

Not at all whining about P38 flaps bug, don't try and start a flame

HT stated that we had two options. 1 was auto-retract flaps on all planes. 2 was auto jam flaps on all planes in the "set" speeds. The P38 atleast has got SOME use of its flaps.