Author Topic: 2006: The year GM loses top spot.  (Read 2600 times)

Offline Choocha

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2006, 07:55:03 PM »
Rolex,


GM is doing well in China.  Better than everybody.  Strange thing, the Royal Family, before the revolution drove Buicks.  You know, Buicks that sell for 1 million today circa 1930's.  So Buicks...the crappy ones they sell now go for 100k overthere!!!!!  Go figure.  


If you don't believe me do some research.

Offline FUNKED1

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2006, 01:17:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
It's also probably about investment and some amount of long-term thinking.  People do want to save gas and clear out the smog (and not just the bunny loving wackos).  Toyota is doing a great job IMO of positioning themselves as the "experts" on hybrids, and when the demand kicks in they will be in the right place at the right time.


I just thought it was funny that some guy was saying GM needed to solve their profitability issues by producing cars that don't earn profit.

Offline lazs2

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2006, 08:54:08 AM »
I don't really care... I never buy new cars and I can allways build a rear wheel drive car with a real frame under it.

As for the auto unions?   who cares.  they are reaping what they sow.

hybrids?   who buys em?   not the family with two people on minimum wage... they aren't gonna spend 30k to have a hybrid that gets 40 mpg when they can buy a 10k new car that gets over 30 mpg or... a $1000 car that gets over 20 mpg...  How many miles you got to drive to make up a 20-29k difference?   and....

How much does it cost when the hybrid needs work?  I know a prius driver with 130k on his and he needs 2k worth of work on it.   How much gas can I buy for 2k?

Let the yuppie mid managers who eat at fr4esh express buy the hybrids and do all the grief on em.... if they ever get good enough and affordable enough... and cheap enough to maintain.... the little guy will buy em..

no car company is now making money on hybrids... No companmy will go broke in the foreseeable future because they don't have hybrids.   There may not be hybrids (as we know them) in 5 years.

As for saab.... how do you run a car company that made cars no one bought into the ground?

So long as American car companies continue to do work on performance parts and vehicles I don't care what else happens to em.

lazs

Offline TexMurphy

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2006, 09:02:12 AM »
lazs2

What you are saying is very valid. The low end consumers are not gonna pay for new technology if new tech is more expencive. That is why its so smart of Toyota to push the tech into Lexuses and mid to high end toyotas.

The low end Yarises and Corollas will be getting it when the production series is so high that it doesnt generate a extra cost.

Tex

Offline lazs2

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2006, 09:08:52 AM »
all car companies do that.   there is nothing wrong with American engineered cars... some of the best features are American ones.... poorly executed.

If you have to pay twice as much for labor then you have to cut quality in half.... generaly speaking and... at the level we are at in auto manufacturing.  

Maybe this will be a chance for the American car companies to unsadle themselves from the UAW criminals.  

If that happens.... The American car companies will not only be able to compete but will be on the forefront.  

lazs

Offline texace

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2006, 09:27:05 AM »
My new Dodge gets 30+ MPG and rides better than any of the two imports I've ever owned. I guess it boils down to a matter of perception.

We'll probably be seeing an end of the SUV era as the country slides into the econobox era again like back in the '80s.

Offline Rolex

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2006, 09:54:59 AM »
If you pay twice as much for labor, I think you should get twice as much quality built into the product. Americans assemble Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, Hondas, Chryslers and Nissans every day.

It is the cars, it is the engineering, it is the management and it is the systems in place that make the difference.

I hope GM and Ford can become motivated to build better cars that people want at prices they can afford. It's good for competition and the economy.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 09:57:37 AM by Rolex »

Offline Choocha

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2006, 10:17:17 AM »
lazs2,

You are 100% right.  GM has the talent, infastrure, and processes in place to surpass Toyota.  What people don't realize is that the UAW reach is far greater than just assembly.  Skilled trades, tool makers, even clay modeling.  GM stoped clay modeling years ago and they still keep a staff of UAW clay modelers because of Union intimidation.  


For example, my friend, a talented engineer was responsible for implementing a new manufacturing process that would save money by reducing headcount in an area.  We traveled to our first plant to implement and he had all four of his tires slashed.  They had it all on video but the Plant manager refused to pull the video out of fear from UAW reprisals.  The project was pulled because it was deemed "to political."  Toyota has been using a similar process for 10 years.

We had some engineers up from Mexico once.  Good and talented guys.  We took them to the prototype shop for a pilot build of THIER new project.  The Union official told them they weren't allowed inside because they were taking American Jobs.  We told them the protoype shop was building a product THEY DESIGNED thereby providing them with work.  He agreed.  Everything was fine until one of the engineers touched a tool.  A near Riot broke out and the ENTIRE workforce in the shop walked out.   This shop was prototyping many products including the new corvette.  But not anymore.  Everything stopped and GM lost weeks of valuable time trying to get the shop running again.

Stupid fks..

Offline Ripsnort

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2006, 10:19:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I live in the most expensive country in the world, yet my health insurance costs about 1/4 of equivalent coverage in the US.


You get what you pay for...from the WSJ today...

Quote
Only about one in five men with prostate cancer in the U.S. will die from it. But, according to a study by the Commonwealth Fund, about 57% of British men, and nearly half of French and German men, will do so. In Britain only 40% of cancer patients are even permitted to see an oncologist to treat the disease. Two-thirds of Canadian provinces report sending their colon cancer patients to the U.S. for treatment.

Offline Sandman

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2006, 10:26:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
all car companies do that.   there is nothing wrong with American engineered cars... some of the best features are American ones.... poorly executed.

If you have to pay twice as much for labor then you have to cut quality in half.... generaly speaking and... at the level we are at in auto manufacturing.  

Maybe this will be a chance for the American car companies to unsadle themselves from the UAW criminals.  

If that happens.... The American car companies will not only be able to compete but will be on the forefront.  

lazs


I know Nissan builds cars in this country. I'm pretty sure Toyota and Honda do the same.

Do they not hire UAW labor?
sand

Offline Skuzzy

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2006, 10:34:19 AM »
Quality cannot be 'built' into a car.  It has to be designed in from the drawing board.  With proper design and manufacturing techiques cars cannot be built poorly.

If you design the parts of a car with 3/4" of slop for adjustment, then guess what?  You get slop.

Infinity/Nissan discovered it was too difficult to get a consistent build due to the car flexing as it moved over the factory assembly floor.  So, they built a factory where the car sits in one place and the assemblers (robots and/or humans) are moved to the car.  Not only did it improve consistency, but they were able to tighten up the play in the car.
It was also easier to use robots for assembly as the robot could be more accurately placed than trying to accurately place the car in proximity to the robot.

Materials are the next issue with American cars.  While we have very good metals, the rest of the car really lacks.  One thing I notice about current American cars is how the interior degrades really quickly.  They fade, crack, break apart at seams and just fall apart in a few years time.  This is just poor/cheap materials.
My 10 year old Infinity I30 interior looked brand new when I got rid of it.  I did nothing special, it just looked really good.  Conversely, my neighbors 4 year old Chrysler looked really bad.  He now owns a Lexus.

There is not an American car in any driveway of the block I live on.  Sad really, but until the American car manufacturers 'get it', thier sales and profits will continue to fall.  Cars are too expensive to be buying one based on country loyalty.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 10:37:30 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline GtoRA2

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2006, 10:52:47 AM »
GM and Ford make decent cars mechanicaly, will one last as long as a honda? Probably not, but I bet they last as long as a toyota.


GM and Ford fail, in that they do not build cars anyone would want. Other then the mustang both companies car line is just not very apealing.

Plus on the compact car market, they are dealing with a customer that has heard for years US cars are crap and they do not consider them.

Hell I wouldnt buy a ford focus over a civic.


GM and ford going under won't kill the country, that is just silly. It will hurt things for some people, but the end?  Hardly.


I dont think either is going to go under, they will probably declare bankrubsy and get out of all their bad labor contracts, close all the US plants down and move them to mexico, then continue to sell cars no one wants.

Offline Choocha

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2006, 10:53:33 AM »
Skuzzy,

Generaly speaking, 70% of quality issues are design related.  You are right.  The problem, you must EXECUTE your design.  GM fails in the EXECUTION phase (mostly).  Sure, you can blame GM mangers to a degree.  But the majority of the problem is with the UAW.


BTW, the UAW has failed to organize one transplant facility in the United States.  This is a very, very sore issue with them.  Toyota in Georgetown, Ky actually allows the UAW to have an office in thier plant but they have failed on every vote to organize them.


Skuzzy,

Most of the vehicle content of GM car comes from captive suppliers like Deliphi..which is in chapter 11 and is also represented by the UAW.  GM has been trying to diversify its supplier base but, again the UAW fights them at every turn.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 10:57:29 AM by Choocha »

Offline Ripsnort

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2006, 10:56:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Materials are the next issue with American cars.  While we have very good metals, the rest of the car really lacks.  One thing I notice about current American cars is how the interior degrades really quickly.  They fade, crack, break apart at seams and just fall apart in a few years time.  This is just poor/cheap materials.
 


Taking care of your equipment factors into this. I have a 9 year old Ford with a perfect interior that the previous owner took very good care of, and I take very good care of.

I've seen a late 90's Lexus with a torn up faded interior because the owner never treated the leather. (shrugs)

Offline Sandman

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2006: The year GM loses top spot.
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2006, 11:20:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
GM and Ford make decent cars mechanicaly, will one last as long as a honda? Probably not, but I bet they last as long as a toyota.


I don't know about the cars, but the Toyota trucks last forever. Quite common to see them with 250,000 miles or more on em.
sand