Bish?

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Zazen13
If a country dedicates the bulk of their force to dominoe horde one base after another in succession they will likely lose 3 undefended bases to a smaller, yet more efficient application of force by the enemy elsewhere...This is basic economy of force military dogma, it is impractical and unwise to use 3 times the force required to accomplish an objective, especially in a linear game like AH (no one base is of greater intrinsic strategic value to another) when that means you stand to lose 3 bases to every one taken in doing so. If dominoe hording is successful in AH it is only because the defending team is not taking proper advantage of the enemy's foolish lack of efficient economy of force.

Zazen

Very ture.  Only this is not a millitary operation.  The enemy is not going to organize and attack 3 other bases just because a base is being horded.  Some will try and deffend, some will try to take a base, some will be fighting the other country, some will be score whoring, and some will be furballing, and some will be busy chery picking.

When I was with the USMC and tried to take bases, the bases were taken within 30 secs to a minute after the town started flashing.  If fighters were not up in numbers there was really nithing they could  do to deffend after the town strted flashing.  Do you think the enemy got organised and tried to take tree of our bases while the 10 of us were doing that?  We would take 4 or 5 bases in minutes.  Imagine what an organized horde of 30 or 50 can do.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by dedalos
Very ture.  Only this is not a millitary operation.  The enemy is not going to organize and attack 3 other bases just because a base is being horded.  Some will try and deffend, some will try to take a base, some will be fighting the other country, some will be score whoring, and some will be furballing, and some will be busy chery picking.

When I was with the USMC and tried to take bases, the bases were taken within 30 secs to a minute after the town started flashing.  If fighters were not up in numbers there was really nithing they could  do to deffend after the town strted flashing.  Do you think the enemy got organised and tried to take tree of our bases while the 10 of us were doing that?  We would take 4 or 5 bases in minutes.  Imagine what an organized horde of 30 or 50 can do.

I am not disagreeing with you or mars that is is possible to take bases with a horde while denying the enemy a direct response. What I am saying is every country has roughly the same proportion of people filling all of those ancillary roles you described and exactly the same opportunity and 'free force' to do their own undefended base hording as an indirect response if they choose to do so. The fact is,  if an enemy is devoting 30-50 of there 100-150 people to horde single bases in rapid succession, there must be by mathematical necessity, some very-large gaping holes in their base defense elsewhere. Wether the defending team has the collective prescence of mind to take advantage of the opportunities as they present themselves  is another issue, but there is definately an opportunity for indirect responses to a team that is single-base hording. The defending team has an opportunity to make single base hording an 'un-economical' way to conduct the 'war'.

Zazen

[Mugzeee]

Major correction requried in following excerpt.
    

  Chopsaw  " I�m not saying people are switching just prior to the reset in numbers, though there are those that do. What I�m saying is people are viewing the trends and seeing who is winning most lately and gradually the numbers build up on that side. It is not an instant �wow I�d better switch because x is going to win�. It is a �I�m tired seeing those other guys win all the time and I�m joining them�. "


MugZ "Zazen could only dream of being as spot on as to "WHAT IS" as you are here. His ideals are nice and peachy they just are very unrealistic in the real world. You speaketh the truth and do it very clearly. I noticed that Tonight "Monday" night when Bish usually have the most players (Bout 40+) average more than Rooks or Nits that it was near dead even all night.. From about 6:00PM est till about 12:00PM est. At 3:57 am est. Tuesday Morning it is Bish=35 Knights=45 and Rooks=47. I think the point is reached where Bish will be mildly outnumbered all week Mon through Thur...and Fri thru Sunday they will be greatly outnumbered. Like last Sun night when Rooks had 12+ players more than Bish and 89 more than Knights. Something will have to happen big to change this trend. But have faith it will change ."

The "12" is meant to read 127
Rooks had 127 players more than Bish and 89 more than Knights.

__________________

[mars01]

there must be by mathematical necessity, some very-large gaping holes in their base defense elsewhere. Wether the defending team has the collective prescence of mind to take advantage of the opportunities as they present themselves is another issue, but there is definately an opportunity for indirect responses to a team that is single-base hording. The defending team has an opportunity to make single base hording an 'un-economical' way to conduct the 'war'.

You would be right as Ded pointed out if there were a joint chiefs for each country and eveything in the MA was coordinated.  This just isn't the case in the MA.  When one countries hord is rolling, there are tons of holes, but unless everyone in the out numbered country is working together little can  be done.  So yes your ideas are correct, they just don't apply to the MA.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I am not disagreeing with you or mars that is is possible to take bases with a horde while denying the enemy a direct response. What I am saying is every country has roughly the same proportion of people filling all of those ancillary roles you described and exactly the same opportunity and 'free force' to do their own undefended base hording as an indirect response if they choose to do so. The fact is,  if an enemy is devoting 30-50 of there 100-150 people to horde single bases in rapid succession, there must be by mathematical necessity, some very-large gaping holes in their base defense elsewhere. Wether the defending team has the collective prescence of mind to take advantage of the opportunities as they present themselves  is another issue, but there is definately an opportunity for indirect responses to a team that is single-base hording. The defending team has an opportunity to make single base hording an 'un-economical' way to conduct the 'war'.

Zazen

Its sad to see such articulation wasted by someone lacking the ability to see things the way they are in the real world i.e., AH2 MA. I morn for the Poets of our past.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I am not disagreeing with you or mars that is is possible to take bases with a horde while denying the enemy a direct response. What I am saying is every country has roughly the same proportion of people filling all of those ancillary roles you described and exactly the same opportunity and 'free force' to do their own undefended base hording as an indirect response if they choose to do so. The fact is,  if an enemy is devoting 30-50 of there 100-150 people to horde single bases in rapid succession, there must be by mathematical necessity, some very-large gaping holes in their base defense elsewhere. Wether the defending team has the collective prescence of mind to take advantage of the opportunities as they present themselves  is another issue, but there is definately an opportunity for indirect responses to a team that is single-base hording. The defending team has an opportunity to make single base hording an 'un-economical' way to conduct the 'war'.

Zazen

Agreed again.  I think you are missing one variable.  Timing.  The other countries will eventually do the same and take the bases back, but since there is no HQ, there wont be a direct responce to that action.  Sure the enemy will take a couple of bases, but the organized horde will take a lot more.  Till they get bored or log off and then the next hord will take over.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by mars01
You would be right as Ded pointed out if there were a joint chiefs for each country and eveything in the MA was coordinated.  This just isn't the case in the MA.  When one countries hord is rolling, there are tons of holes, but unless everyone in the out numbered country is working together little can  be done.  So yes your ideas are correct, they just don't apply to the MA.

I hear what you're saying, but disagree that it takes a "joint chiefs" arrangement to implement conservation of force.

Take one squad with 8 guys on, and average spread of abilities. Add teamwork and timing. Those 8 guys could do NOE sneak captures of neglected fields at will.

They wouldnt have to coordinate with anyone outside their group, and in fact might beneift from being able to hide their coherent "signal" in the uncoordinated, panicked "noise" of the random ineffective efforts of their country mates.

[mars01]

Its sad to see such articulation wasted by someone lacking the ability to see things the way they are in the real world i.e., AH2 MA. I morn for the Poets of our past.

articulation is one thing diarrhea of the keyboard is another.

[mars01]

Take one squad with 8 guys on, and average spread of abilities. Add teamwork and timing. Those 8 guys could do NOE sneak captures of neglected fields at will.

coulda, woulda, shoulda.  They don't.  It doesn't happen.  I have yet to see the horde lose.  The only way to combat the horde is move fields closer or get an even bigger horde and fight back.  Then only problem tho, is that the two hordes don't want a fight they just want to roll bases, so you almost never see two hordes collide.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by mars01
coulda, woulda, shoulda.  They don't.  It doesn't happen.  I have yet to see the horde lose.  The only way to combat the horde is move fields closer or get an even bigger horde and fight back.  Then only problem tho, is that the two hordes don't want a fight they just want to roll bases, so you almost never see two hordes collide.

 Hiya Mars     How was your day?
Now we are getting plain and simple facts.. could you please use some bigger words? You rae lacking depth.

[KTM520guy]

Originally posted by Jackal1
I can`t speak for where everyone is all the time, but I can give ya statistics on the last time I logged on. There were 128 Bish online. Two were asking repeatedly what the procedure was for taking off. Two couldn`t grasp the concept that E started the engine. Four were having trouble understanding the directions that was being given to them on how to use Vox. One of these was asking on VOX.

I think I know those dudes LOL. I try to help the noobs when I can. It wasn't all that long ago that I was a noob. Recently a guy was pissed that he couldn't kill a gv with a plane. Several people were on the HELP channel trying to convince this guy that It was indeed possible. I then landed 8 kills in an IL-2. Never heard from that guy again. My favorite is when a noob is asking how to see the map. You tell him "push the 'ESC' button. Then they refuse because somebody else had already told them that bad things happen when they do that. It's funny until  I remember that my team(bish) is at the wrong end of the gene pool.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by dedalos
Agreed again.  I think you are missing one variable.  Timing.  The other countries will eventually do the same and take the bases back, but since there is no HQ, there wont be a direct responce to that action.  Sure the enemy will take a couple of bases, but the organized horde will take a lot more.  Till they get bored or log off and then the next hord will take over.

I don't think you and mars are correct on this issue. You seem to think that a conscious effort is required to monopolize on the vulnerabilites of a single-base hording team. This is not usually the case. Human nature seeks the path of least resistance, both on an individual level as well as in a group dynamic. Obviously, taking on the horde directly is almost futile and certainly the path of MOST resistance, so people will tend not to do it, not by conscious intention but by virtue of simple logic, human psychology and common sense. By the same token, taking advantage of defensive holes of the base hording team is a path of least resistance as is counter-hording relatively un-defended feilds. So again, these things will be done within a reasonably responsive time-frame whether the individuals of a team are consciously co-ordinated about it or not. Human nature as dictated by our evolutionary development is drawn like a moth to flame to the path of least resistance when attempting to overcome opposition. This is by no means something that needs a Country Commander or HQ, it is the innate proclivity of every thinking person when faced with moments of tactical decision making...

Zazen

[Simaril]

Originally posted by mars01
coulda, woulda, shoulda.  They don't.  It doesn't happen.  I have yet to see the horde lose.  The only way to combat the horde is move fields closer or get an even bigger horde and fight back.  Then only problem tho, is that the two hordes don't want a fight they just want to roll bases, so you almost never see two hordes collide.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the direction of the thread.

I agree 100% that hordes are bad, nasty, counterproductive things. they are hard to stop. Its easy to be discoiuraged when seeing a horde, because you cant fight it and you dont watn to join it. And, its also pretty clear that hordes are cyclic.

I've only been here 2 years, and I've seen rooks have overpowering numbers, I've seen Nits have the hordes, and I've seen Bish have top numbers.

And every single time this natural cycles rolls, at the rhythm's nadir the ganged side fill the BBS with Chicken LIttle's refrain.

And then the numbers shift back, which will happen shortly. ENY and Brownian random movement distributions assure it. So, hang in a few weeks to see what happens.



PS Right now, the horde effect is magnified because there's a chunk of newer guys on rooks who are still getting off on  scorch the earth type missions (and maybe getting a base).  Things may change once they get bored with that and get better in fighters -- and thats starting already, as I'm seeing some landing kills and even posting "fighter sweep" missions they previously said would disappear now that they'd "arrived with a new team oriented appraoch that would change the way AH is played forever." (I am NOT making this up. One guy was boasting about this so much that he had Hoarach almost ready to stroke..... So, the bish arent the only ones who can have entertaining typists on country!)

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Kaw1000
The Bish been out numbered heavely the last two weeks....This past friday there were 270 rooks on and 190 knits on and 135 bish.....heres the kicker...the rooks and knits are all fighting bish...makes no sense to me...rooks are the stronger team by numbers...and knits..cant beat bish unless they are tag teaming bish with rooks.
   I dont see the fun in taking bases when bish are so outnumbered...but rooks think they are good cause they bang bish...and knits can't win unless they are banging bish also!!
   Any of you knits think you could fight rooks and take some of their base..and maybe win the war foe once...instead of being in second place all the time! you knits afraid of rooks??? I think so!!
   Pound for pound bish are the best....sure does take a long time to reset the map with that many people on line.....so next time I hear rooks or knits say how good the are...remember the numbers...how we are almost always way out numbered.
    Too the rooks....if there was any way to have a fair fight as far as numbers go you all would go down hard...cause without numbers you all suck!!!!      AMEN!!!!!!

I'll post screenshots starting Tonight.  I have seen the identical situation of Rooks fighting both, with the token "let's at least make it look like we are fighting each other" Knight/Bish darbar.   Look at the darbar, if you are gonna NOT acknowledge this yourself Kaw, you have no validity in the words you speak.   BTW, I recall the Rooks being down in AH1, and never complained on the numbers.  Why?  We were too busy herding the perkies of killing and killing a plenty!  Hell, you guys even got HTC to enact the Eny Limiter to counter "RJO" on Sunday nights.  What made it worse is that was the ONLY time Rookland had the numbers.   Who's complaining now?  Bish/Knight's are, I see a pattern.  

Karaya

[Hammy]

Rather I think the largest attraction is being on the winning side. Not for the perks, but simply to be on the side that's winning. It's a nice feeling. You're with a bunch of guys that are stomping keester and that's fun. Maybe makes you feel like you're part of an elite outfit. That sort of thinking.

i disagree with this statement. i know of alot of ex bish, shifted to rooks so that they could hide in the horde to continue their score horing unmolested.
I wont name names but they know who they are.