Saw on russian news...

[Boroda]

Dowding, I hosted an American friend in 1989   So I know that food is weird for anglo-saxons   For my guest it was always too much, ask Miko is a Ukrainian approach to feeding their guests  

Lenin's mausoleum gave me the same impression. Exactly.

And English school you visited could be the one I finished just a year before. I studied in #23, on Park Kultury subway station.

In early 1990s I was a college student, and often spent my time long-range hiking with kids from my former school. We took the group of children born in 1977-78 to their first mountain trip in 1991, and traveled with them until they graduated. The best group I ever had. All over Russia, from Kola noodlesula to Lake Baikal... 6 years younger - and they were so differnt from me!  

Good old "bad times"!  

Oh, forgot what I need to say: there is no difference for you - they all lie to take your money/property/health/life. Regardless to  social formation or ideology. Try your best to escape them all. The guys who emigrated from the USSR have chosen the most obvious way to escape - only to aquire new parasites.

All above said is only my own personal opinion based on my personal experience.

6 AM here, I am full of beer  

There is no tobacco that can be compared to "Belomor" made at Uritskiy's factory!

 

Rebyata, tut, v Moskve - eto defitsit!  

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-29-2000).]

[Boroda]

Udie, Leonid lives in Seattle!!!

He knows Russian history much better them many Russians   and your mistake is a great honor to his knowledge and intellignce!

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Udie]

 

Originally posted by Boroda:
Udie, Leonid lives in Seattle!!!

He knows Russian history much better them many Russians   and your mistake is a great honor to his knowledge and intellignce!

 How did I make a mistake?

 

and I don't live in a cage  

Udie

[Dowding]

Boroda - I'll try and dig out some of the stuff I got from Russia, and try and find out which school we visited.   There was talk of an exchange scheme for a while afterward, but nothing came of it.

Russian food - mmmm.   I remember there was quite alot of it, but as a kid I must have been a bit picky and didn't eat much in that week! The waiter's must have thought we were typical decadent westerners, and I always felt a little guilty leaving it. One thing I remember was a rice type thing, piled in sort of a tower, with a white source. Don't know what it was.

The ice-cream was great though!  

As for your view of the West, its a little cynical, if you don't mind me saying. Sure, it's no paradise; there's poverty, injustice, crime etc. But it is the best system on the planet, overall, and although many changes need to be made (and will be made) I would fight to protect the rights and ideals we have in this country specifically, and the West generally. But I'd be a little biased, I guess  .

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-30-2000).]

[-lynx-]

 

Could you elaborate a bit, mate?  

Sure: Kosovo/Chechen war coverage by all (without exception) Western news sources.

Neither Kosovans nor Chechens are "the whiter-than-white freedom fighters fighting a holy war against big-ugly-brother oppression". In no way I condone mass slaughter of innocent civilians by anyone but showing them as they have been shown (very one-sided I must say) is naive to say the least.

 

I know its hard for people who only ever had one official news organ to understand that the BBC is not the 'mouthpiece' of the government, even though it is not a private organisation.

Here's the news - the news sell. It's a commodity same as Coronation Street or a Nescafe commercial. The "popular" outlook on things sells better hence the biased coverage.

And the popular views are that the Russians are generally "bad". Therefore - Chechens are good and so on. No-one disputes personal integrity of journalists. It's just impossible to be in 2 places at once hence inability to see those ever so important both sides of the story.

In close to home terms: IRA - freedom fighters? Like hell they are... Ever seen a report showing "IRA's point of view"? Still believe everything's reported unbiased?



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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

[-lynx-]

 

Originally posted by cvb---:
To the "British" guy - it's nice that you managed to get that wonderful Toyota. But the thing is... Well, used cars suck, no matter how long you can "drive" them before they completely die.

Sure pal - you just go right ahead and buy them new. The problem is they lose 10-15% of the price you've just paid for them the moment you drive out of the showroom but hey - what's a few thousands between friends, right? Are you a dealer or smth?

What if you don't like what manufacturers spitting out in your general direction anyway? I spent 8 weeks looking for "the one I want" - 1992 Honda Prelude SE 2.0i 16V 4WS (one of the last Mk3 Preludes sold in this country). At 110K on the clock with full Honda service history it'll beat the snot out of anything manufactured today. And it's drop dead gorgeous too . I don't just "drive it" - I enjoy every second of being with my Big Beautifull Doll .

Surely, there are used cars that "suck" - you don't have to buy those do you? I had to drive a brand new Escort (company car - blah-blah) - "sucked" would be a massive understatement about that thing.



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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

[Dowding]

I can see the headline now:

"Western media in reporting of Chechyen War Shocker".

There was virtually no reporting of Chechnya compared to Kosovo, or Bosnia before that. How many Western journalists were in Grozny when it fell? Answer: none.

As for reporting of KLA etc - reporters can only report on what they see, and no reporter worth his salt will lie about what he sees. At no point did I hear or read of a single journalist advocating the view - "The Serbs are evil, the KLA are saints." They reported on facts - the viewer or reader then makes a judgement. If someone wants to come to the conclusion that what they are seeing is a real-life Hollywood film, complete with 'Goodies' and 'Baddies', then that's their lookout.

I personally put much more faith in 'after the fact' programmes, which have time to assimilate all the facts without the pressure of first-hand reporting. Such as 'Panorama' or 'World in Action' (when it used to be on). Also, the books of journalists on their experiences; Martin Bell's book on the Bosnian conflict is very interesting ('Diary of a War Zone Thug' I think its called - I met and talk to the guy at a uni. debate, nice bloke).

Regarding the IRA - I have seen a program speaking to members of that 'freedon-fighter' group, and outlining the history behind the 'troubles'. I've also spoken to people who actually live in NI, who I was at uni. at. When the IRA bombed the Lonon Docklands, or Manchester or the pubs in the 1970s, or shot another soldier - the BBC report the facts and the facts only.

cvb - Used cars don't necessarily suck any more than new ones do. Well, that's true over here, I don't know about over there. Are you saying that you've always bought new cars, and they've always worked without problem? You must be the luckiest man in the world! Some new cars over here lose 50% of their value in 6 months!!!

[-lynx-]

Dowding - I never said any of the journalists lied. They just didn't report all of the truth.

And it's not actually the journalists themselves, it's the news editors etc - people who actually compile the news you see. In order to be truly objective one needs to show both sides of the story. What we were shown - and don't tell me there was no way to get "the other side's story" - was that Serbs were, broadly speaking, slaughtering kosovan civilians. There you go - bad Serbs and good Kosovans.

If you had a chance to see the conflict from the Serbs point of view - shown just as truthfully and with equal respect you would have made your own mind who was right and who was wrong.

 

At no point did I hear or read of a single journalist advocating the view - "The Serbs are evil, the KLA are saints." They reported on facts - the viewer or reader then makes a judgement.

They didn't have to - all we saw on all channels were Kosovan refugees (fact), and poorly dressed/armed KLA fighters (fact) vs serbian tanks and artillery (fact). Are you saying you've made an objective judgement based on that coverage?

 

Propaganda :
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause;

 http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=propaganda

Dr Goering was reportedly quite good at it.

 

(again)

I know its hard for people who only ever had one official news organ to understand that the BBC is not the 'mouthpiece' of the government

I have to point out that in my case I had a chance to see it from both sides of the fence. That's why I'm highly sceptical about anyone professing "the one and only truth" however believable or "true to life" this truth might appear.

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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-02-2000).]

[cvb---]

Used cars suck just like used clothes. That's why 6 months old car loses up to 30% of the value. I'm not even talking about questionable reliability, dated styling and performance.

I had a 1989 Ford Probe (Mazda built) for 4 months. It was disgusting, but I was a student and had no money   After that I had a 1999 a 2-door Ford Escort, 9 months. It was a little better (still no money   Now I have a 2000 BMW 323.

BTW, why are you so worried about money?   There's _always_ enough money for everyone  )

[Dowding]

But there was also reports on how the KLA were treating Serb civilians. I don't remember the details, but I'm sure of this. I also read a history of the KLA somewhere which detailed their actions before and during the conflict.

If you want the other side, you might have to look a little harder but it is there. I'm also sure that on news bulletins at the time, it was discussed. Moreover, when Kosovo hit the international news headlines, it was the Serbs doing the ethinic cleansing and mass displacement; the KLA were very much on the defensive.

[Dowding]

Ooops - double post!

Might as well use it...

cvb - you are saying that after 6 months a car becomes unreliable? Dated styling? So you change your car every 6 months also?

If not, then why pay inflated prices, when you can save thousands of pounds by wating 6 months? Anyway, a car doesn't properly 'run in' until about a year has passed - any problems that the car had off the production line have been sorted out by the mug who bought it brand new. I'd rather save myself the hassle.  

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-02-2000).]

[Boroda]

Lynx, you have to admit that some journalists lie deliberatly. The best example was that German reporter who used tapes of Russian reporter with Russian soldiers burying Chechen rebels. He clipped the tape so that dead gangsters looked like civilians. Later he admited this fact.

Story of a Kosovo conflict started with many lies. Serbs sterted police operations against Albanian gangs that terrorised civilians (both Serbian and Albanian) and smuggled drugs. By the November, 1998, there were about 200 people dead on each side. Russian army does the same thing in Chechnya...

If you remember - in Spring, 1999, I gave LOTS of links to Serbian resourses covering Kosovo conflict to warbirds.general, and NOONE of my opponents ever bothered looking at them! AFAIR you were involved into that discussion too...

As for Grozniy - there were journaists with the terrorist forces. All they said was that it feels very bad when you are bombed. I can add that it is very uncomfortable when the apartment house next to yours is blown up at night. Look at my thread on AGW:
 http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum7/HTML/001131.html

Looks like we finaly agree on something  

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[cvb---]

Dowding, buying a used car is almost like buying damaged designer clothes. I have to admit that it makes economic sense, but who cares? You have to drive a car that some stranger used to have. It's like that he did some nasty things there too  

What is the point of all this? Trying to get a car that you couldn't afford new for little money? Why? Don't try to be something you're not! Obey your thirst!  

But, it's a free society. Actually, I should be glad there's people that like used cars. Just makes it cheaper for me to own a new car every 3 years  

PS. BTW, it all started with a used Toyota as a symbol of western prosperity  

[Udie]

 Actualy used cars are the way togo IMnsHO.  I may buy 1 new car once just to say I was the only owner, but that would be the only reason.  The instant you drive off the lot you lose at least $2,000 to $5,000 alot more in some cases.  If you play your cards right with used cars you can buy a new (used) car ever 2 years and actualy make a little money or at least brake even.  That is provided you pay cash for your car.  

 The trick is to buy the thing at or as close to wholesale value as possible. This can be tough if your not in the car business or if you don't know anybody in the business, but it is entirely possible.

 Want to talk cheap cars?  Try my first car,  got it in '88 it was a '77 Buick Regal Landau.  Rust bucket with NO muffler or exhaust manifold   can we say loud?  I purchased it for 2 nentiendo tapes and a $150 pevey guitar.  I could only keep 1/2 a tank in it because the tank leaked   and I could watch the road go by underneath my feet when I drove.  My mom hated that car, she finaly made me sell it   I miss it too, it had a freaking suit engine in it.  I used to beat camero's and trans ams in it hehehehehehe.


Udie

[Dowding]

I couldn't remember where it started cvb.  

Udie - in the US don't your cars get tested for road worthiness?   Over here we have a thing called MOT - you need this to drive legally and get insurance. Having siad that, you can get around it if you know the right people, if you know what I mean.

Boroda - most reputable journalists don't lie. Out of all the reports made on Chechnya, you could only find one example of where a journalist had acted unethically? The great majority possess enough proffessional integrity to report what they see. What I find disturbing about Chechnya, is not the dispute Russia has with the 'terrorists', but how it was unable to distinguish between the rebels and the citizens who were trying to survive amongst the fighting. I've listened to translations of Andrei Babitsky's experiences at the hands of the Russian secret services. He was held within what can be described as a Stalinist 'Gulag'; he heard the screams of men and women throughout his considerable stay. Also, the way the Russian forces were systematically arresting males over the age of 12 (I think) - it just smacked of the Bosnian conflict. The Russian ground forces seemed unable to handle the press, or accept their role as observers of the conflict.