Teaching Aid

[Badboy]

Hi,

Here is an annotated gun camera footage showing the barrel roll defense.  

http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.avi

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[FTJR]

Thankyou badboy and the Training corps, very nice..

[Spatula]

Brilliant video, Badboy!

[Badboy]

I'm just glad it was legible enough to read. There is a hi-res web based version with much better clarity, but the file size is much bigger.

That maneuver is one we see a lot in the arena. I've noticed that some players depend on it. Some get so many kills that way that they think having less energy than the attacker is an advantage.

That can be true, but it generally isn't, the pilot with more energy does have an advantage providing he knows how to use it. In that film the two attacking pilots had the advantage, a very big advantage, they ran down a slower pilot and either one of them should have made an easy kill. Working together, they could have made it even easier.  

They didn't because they made a number of mistakes. The first attacker made some fairly crucial mistakes in close succession. The second attacker didn't live long enough to make as many, but if you can spot them, they are fairly instructive. So, can you guys spot them? Try the following questions:

List the first attackers mistakes in the order they occurred?

If you were the first attacker, what would you have done differently?


Badboy

[Krusty]

Well, the first attacker just went blazing in way too fast, trying to keep his nose on the enemy. When the enemy turned he tried to, as well. When the enemy rolled, he tried to, as well. He tried, which is a good thing, but he didn't set up his attack. I would have manuvered closer before comitting to a turn fight like that, but then I'm no expert.

The second attacker's first mistake was coming in WAY too hot. Should have chopped throttle about 600d back, scrubbed some speed (just a bit). The second mistake was hitting a sitting target, that wasn't manuvering. The third mistake was not pulling up when the overshoot was inevitable, and instead flying directly past the target and into it's guns. Either fly up, down, port, starboard, anything but directly into its guns!

An interesting film, and very well illustrated.

[Pooface]

very nice illustration badboy:aok

TC had some great moves there. barrel rolls are a great NEA reversal, but they dont always work out, and that is a point people need to understand before they try this.

another important point to note is that you should only cut the throttle in these rolling reversals if you must, because you will need energy to make the kill at the end, otherwise the bandit will get away from you, even if you do ping him a few times

again, very nicely done BB

[Krusty]

That's something a lot do, they cut throttle really fast hoping for the instant overshoot. You can spot it easily and if you just go straight by the time they've finished leveling out they're stalling and 600+ behind you, and you're speeding away.

Then again there's the folks that go a little too fast and you can easily make up some manuver to get yourself a snapshot on them while they try to barrel roll you.

[Lye-El]

As a guess, once the shot was blown, instead of continuing to turn he should have extended then re engage or gone high, perhaps to the left to gain some separation and hopefully be coming back down with defender below and ahead of him.

I can see it in my head easier than write it down.

[Krusty]

What about just roping the defensive pilot? That might have worked, and if he didn't bite, just come back down on him, nothing lost but a little time.

[Pooface]

if anyone ever tries that on you, and you think that you might just over shoot, point the nose high, infact, you could go vertical, gain some alt, wait for him to stop, then get him. he will have lost E in the maneuver, so it will be far harder for him to evade you this time, and an easier shot to lead:aok

same with any kind of overshoot stuff. if you suspect something, go up, and get him when he stops/stalls

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Badboy
That maneuver is one we see a lot in the arena. I've noticed that some players depend on it. Some get so many kills that way that they think having less energy than the attacker is an advantage.

This is so TRUE..........yet so wrong  to teach it  as being an appropriate way of fighting........who wants to always fight from a defensive position......

Originally posted by Badboy
List the first attackers mistakes in the order they occurred?
 

my first thoughts would be he did not assess the capibilities and weakness of each aircraft:  his 109k4  vs my F4u1C.......had he done this, he would have known to go UP, instead of  DOWN, when I decided to go UP, when I saw him go DOWN

Pooface:  as for your comment:

if anyone ever tries that on you, and you think that you might just over shoot, point the nose high, infact, you could go vertical, gain some alt, wait for him to stop, then get him. he will have lost E in the maneuver, so it will be far harder for him to evade you this time, and an easier shot to lead.....same with any kind of overshoot stuff. if you suspect something, go up, and get him when he stops/stalls

I would not put 100% faith in believing this or thinking this,  if you do, it will come back to bite you and bite you HARD   you must read your opponent's E-state. just thinking he is bleeding E will not suffice, you must KNOW that he is at a lower E than yourself and that he CAN NOT reach you........trust me when I say alot of us have already tryed and thought this way before.....in regards to going up and wait.....learning to judge E states of your enemy in this game is one of the most demanding skills to accomplish in my opinion, that and practicing GOOD SA habits......

am surprised badboy made this, good stuff ( editorial wise ) badboy ~S~

my flying isn't that great , nor is my gunnery..........

[SkyLab]

Very nice job Badboy and TC.

Reading explanations of ACM's sometimes leaves me more confused then ever.

The visual aspect of your written explanation was terrific.

Do more!

[Urchin]

One correction, or comment anyway... in a rolling scissors you do NOT want to keep your lift vector on your opponent.  You want to anticipate where your opponent will be on the "bottom" of his revolution, and place your lift vector there while you are maintaining as close to strictly vertical in your revolutions as you can.  

The rolling scissors is a "race to the back"... whoever can bleed off the most forward momentum is going to win.  Constantly rolling you keep your lift vector on the opponent uses energy you could be using to bleed forward momentum.

[Murdr]

Here is the mistake in a much more general sense.  If you (the trail) have the E advantage in a lead-trail situation, you have a decision to make in advance.  Either you are going to keep your E, and separate when you know you cant follow.  Or you are going to dump E to the point of equalizing energy and trail their every move.  Trying to do both at the same time will end up with you in lead position.

When you have E, you should be able to dictate the flow of the fight.  But when you allow the low E plane to draw you in to where there is very little separation, and still try to keep your E, you allow them to dictate the fight.  If the 'lead' is good they are in effect saying "Follow me, I'll give you a nice target in a few seconds.  Thats good, keep comming, closer....closer.  Psyc, just kidding."  The angles are already crafted, where you're not likely to make the shot.  So while at face value you may think the first mistake is blowing the shot, the mistake had already happend a few seconds earlier when you didnt make a clear decision.  If you stubbornly tried to maintain gun solutions until you are on top of them, you gave up your separation, and it is way to late to dump E.  Hopefully you can extend out of gun range without getting tagged at that point, but if you decided either/or before you gave up separation, you wouldnt be in that prediciment.

By the way, I am not saying don't try to take a shot.  I am saying take a shot if you see it, but do it with consideration to the minimum separation that you feel you can allow.

[Schatzi]

Heres my take on this.....

First attacker:

Should have decided if he wanted to "BnZ" and keep his E - then he shouldnt have turned with TC more then  a few degrees and, after missing his shot, pulled back up - or second option get committed into a turnfight (if thats smart or not in a 109 against TCs F4U, i dont dare decide) - for a committed turnfight he came in too fast and didnt bleed his E off quick enough. This is an either or decision, the in between usually gets you back to tower fast.


The way the 109 did it, he had one shot at a sharp turning plane, his excess E made it impossible to stay with the F4U. This actually worsened by the fact that the 109 had a nose low attitude halfway though the first turn, which made the radius even wider.

Im not sure since i rarely fly the 109 series, but IIRC they have a hard time bleeding off speed fast. A defininte disadvantage in this position.

The decision for a low G extension came at the worst moment possible.... when in line of 4 Hispanos......



Second attacker:

Too fast. Bad SA (he couldve anticipated TC going low after the first one and aim for the place he will be (with enough lead) instead he pointed his guns directly at the bogey, hence never getting a gun solution. When he realised his overshoot, he shouldve gone UP, not directly in TCs gunsight.



Basically, TC used their E-"advantage" against them and they let him do it.



Please point out MY mistakes in this assessment..... im very often in a defensive position in the MA, and mostly not successfully so.