Hero Or Criminal???????

[Cabby]

As the unbelievable story of Bob Kerry continues to unfold before us, i am intrigued by the number of moral, philosophical, and character questions Kerry's actions(and the USA's and world's REACTIONS to it) in Viet Nam raise.

The "burying" of Kerry's story by Newsweek(they've had this story since '99)and the Washington Post, both Liberal media juggernauts. Newsweek also "buried" the Monica Lewinsky story. What is going on here??

Did Kerry MURDER civilians(women and children)and lie about it??? Or did he just "do his duty"??

Did Kerry just "eliminate" any possible obstacles to his Squad's egress and therefore use sound military tactics appropriate to a savage guerilla war?

Why did Kerry accept a Bronze Medal for his actions if he knew he didn't deserve it? Or did he deserve the medal, and the civilian deaths were just part of the "War Is Hell/Fog Of War" reality??

Who exposed Kerry, and why at this late date?? Why should Kerry answer for his conduct in battle 32 years after the fact? Why is he "apologising" for his conduct if he did nothing wrong?? Or is he no different than a Nazi SS Officer found to be living a quiet life in a country other than Germany?

Will Kerry have to stand trial as did Lt. Calley for the My Lai Massacre?

Why does Kerry's fellow Squad-mate have a different story than what Kerry is telling? And does this guy have a personal agenda?? Apparently, this man "saved" Kerry's life in Viet Nam.

Why does Kerry give a Press Conference only to face the usual idiotic Media questions(i.e. "have you apologised to the family of the people you killed"), many of whom are openly hostile to the US Military??

Should Kerry give his Bronze Medal back? And what about his Medal Of Honor?? Is Kerry a "ruthless killer", or a "good soldier in a bad war"? Is not war an atrocity no matter WHO'S side you are on?? Or did Kerry merely "fight fire-with-fire", in that the Viet Cong routinely used civilians as "shields", bait, and as snipers/booby traps???

The questions are many. The supposed "healed" wounds of the Viet Nam War have been ripped-open again by this tragic story. How will the Viet Nam Veteran be remembered in History? As "child-killers" or "honorable" soldiers?? Is there such a thing as an "honorable" soldier in the Hell we call War???

Cabby


[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 04-26-2001).]

[texace]

He did what he was ordered to do. Had he refused he'd have been court martialed and someone else would do it for him.

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semperfi
 
Everything dead in 30 minutes or less or the next one's free.
-Marines

[This message has been edited by texace (edited 04-26-2001).]

[Karnak]

War is all hell.
-General William Tecumseh Sherman

I don't know what really happened in that day and place, and neither does anyone who will post here.

cabby,
Keep in mind, those "liberal" media sources also buried any info that Bush was a deserter (all evidence says that he was).  Boy, that sure is a liberal ploy to smear the guy.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
Bush was a deserter (all evidence says that he was).  Boy, that sure is a liberal ploy to smear the guy.  

Ain't been around the Air Guard much, have ya?  

[StSanta]

He did what he was ordered to do. Had he refused he'd have been court martialed and someone else would do it for him.

The Nüremberg trials made very clear that this isn't an excuse. Carrying out unlawful orders isn't the job of a soldier.

I don't know much about this particular story, but this is the way usch things have been interpreted in the past.

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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Nash]

Ahh... Toad. Reminds me of an old discussion we had a while back... You had a few questions, so I posted the links fer ya. Never did hear back from ya after that though <g>.

Oh lookee here... I found them...  

(Have no idea if these are any good still)

"Vets want proof of Bush service" - The Birmingham, AL News 10/14/00:   http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/Oct2000/14-e414023b.html

"Questions remain on Bush's service as Guard pilot." - The Boston Globe 10/31/00:  http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/

(Atlanta Journal Constitution article available online from the Chicago Tribune:  http://chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/article/0,2669,SAV-0011020310,FF.html )

Medal of Honor winner Sen. Bob Kerrey blasts Bush on Service -  http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/Kerrey_blasts_Bush_on_service+  .shtml


Bush Let Guard Down - Washington Post, 11/3/00:  http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4291-2000Nov2.html

Sen. Max Cleland Questions Bush Service - The Tennessean, 11/3/00:  http://www.tennessean.com/local/00613269.shtml

DUI and AWOL stories break on same day - The Sacramento Bee, 11/3/00:  http://www.capitolalert.com/news/capalert01_20001103.html

Bush working to keep truth hidden - The Atlanta Journal Constitution, 11/3/00:  http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/saturday/news_a3305  b396349414b001f.html

Bush pressured on military gaps - Boston Globe, 11/3/00:  http://www.globe.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/Bush_pressured_on_military_gaps  .shtml

Bush military record berated - The Dallas Morning News, 11/3/00: http:// [url=http://www.dallasnews.com/campaign/092000/208224_attack_06pol.A.html]http://www.dallasnews.com/campaign/092000/208224_attack_06pol.A.html[/url]

Bush probably skipped the final 17 months of his National Guard commitment - The New Republic, 11/13/00:   http://newrephtml.html  

[Sandman_SBM]

 

Why did Kerry accept a Bronze Medal for his actions if he knew he didn't deserve it?

When you're presented with a medal, I don't think there is ever an opportunity to turn it down. It's not an academy award. You also aren't generally allowed to make acceptance speeches.

 

The supposed "healed" wounds of the Viet Nam War have been ripped-open again by this tragic story.

Wounds here in the U.S. or Viet Nam? My guess is that Viet Nam didn't need the Washington Post to be reminded of this event. The "wound" was there all along.

 

From Reuters: Kerrey has acknowledged that the killing of civilians took place, but he said the squad was returning fire and did not know that civilians had been killed until after the fighting.

``When we fired, we fired because we were fired upon,'' he told a news conference. ``In short, we did not go out on a mission with the intent of killing innocent people,'' he said.

War is hell and innocent people not involved in the struggle are often casualties.

IMHO, this is a tragedy but far from a war crime. Had Kerry's squad intentionaly targeted civilians, than yes, there's an issue, but self-protection from threats is ALWAYS authorized. So... do you fire or not? If you decide to fire, you may find yourself in the same situation as the Vincennes. If you don't, the Cole. Many, given the choice, would be in the former rather than the latter.

Issue aside, what's the point? There's a hidden agenda here. This story was squelched and then trotted out at later date to damage Kerry's credibility. shrecking politics...

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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs
The SBM's are hiring!

[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 04-27-2001).]

[Sturm]

Don't know him didn't affect my life and don't care.  Happened awhile back.  We keep bringing up history as if we can change it.  Next thing someone will be pissed Napolean invaded Russia.

[1776]

This is all about Kerry's possible run for the presidency in 2004.

The real question becomes who spilled the beans, Kerry himself or a potential opponent?

Kerry is sure getting alota face time on TV now  

I predict that there will be much talk and finger pointing.  Kerry will be judged by the media to be evil.  Many news stories will follow until Kerry has a new conference and breaks down and cries many tears,apoligies all over the place and says that a healing must begin,blah,blah,blah.

At some point the media will come to his aid and will finally pronounce Kerry as big hearted...blah,blah,blah.  Image repaired, issue squashed.

The end result will be that the media will back Kerry in his bid in 2004!!

[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-27-2001).]

[Mickey1992]

"Why did Kerry accept a Bronze Medal for his actions..."

Because he was lying in a hospital with part of his right leg blown off.  You think he gave a rat's bellybutton what medals were put at his bedside?

[Eagler]

Criminal - but the libs and their media will turn him into a hero/victim for slaughtering the people.

Eagler

[Toad]

Nash,

I remember reading all those; you'll noticed that in none of them is their evidence that the Commanding Officer took action to "find" what is portrayed as the "deserter".

Seems a bit odd, doesn't it? One of your troopers fails to show up and you just let it go? Forever? There is such a thing as Command Accountability; where was it here?

Can it be that there are things we still don't know about this?

That's what I meant about the Air Guard comment. Those of you who were around the Guard in the 60's and 70's will remember that it was probably the "loosest" run organization in modern US military history. There was a LOT of paperwork that either was never done or simply ignored altogether.

The Guard simply didn't operate by the "rules" from HHQ... unless they were forced into it at gunpoint almost.  

That's what made it such a GREAT place to be.   I tried to get in after my Active Duty but unfortunately I couldn't find a unit that would take me as a commuter. After VietNam they were in the catbird seat; way more available talent than slots.

[Toad]

Nash?

thunk...thunk... thunk  (taps mike)

Nash? I answered.

 

[blur]

Another viewpoint on this mess.
 http://www.consortiumnews.com/050101a.html

[Mk10=Ravens]

Napoleon invaded Russia!?!  That bastard!  Why wasn't I told of this?

Let's keep taking pot-shots at veterans, Ted Kennedy, Bush's daughter, Al Gore, Hillary & Bill, ANYTHING except really concentrating on the fact that our financial markets are in ruin, and we're about to face the spectre of war, possibly nuclear in nature.

Ah, screw it.  If we die, we die.  Yeah, I thought Bush's little gin blossom was kinda cute too, even if she WAS a little chubby!  Hey honey, c'mere a minnit!  You ever hear of Patty Hearst?  I got some stuff I want you to read...

Mk