Author Topic: Why unions still suck  (Read 3199 times)

Offline mietla

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2006, 02:21:53 PM »
very weak. It's not even an argument.

Tell me why should people be rewarded based on a group membership, not based on their own merit.

Perhaps a janitor is a janitor is a janitor, but it pretty much ends there. Clearly you are not suggesting that an engineer is and engineer is an engineer.

I, for one, would never join a union. It would limit me instead of help me. I want to be paid for what I can deliver and not have my reward being limited by the weakest engineer anywhere.

Offline indy007

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2006, 02:30:07 PM »
Uhm... how can we revert back to 19th century sweatshops if we already have laws on the books, thanks to unions, that prevent it?

Unions are useful, for very brief periods of time, to correct unfair practices. However, once the unfair practice is outlawed, why should the union continue to exist and hamper the business? Form it up when you need it, and disband it when it's no longer useful... unless you like paying for a bunch of people $100k+ a year to send you on a strike over a $1/hr pay increase. I'd be willing to bet that union dues are higher than what you'd gain off of a strike anyways.

There's a really big difference between corporations returning to sweatshops, and somebody demanding $30/hr for a minimum wage job.

Offline WhiteHawk

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2006, 02:45:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
That was then and this is now.  They (the unions) are now a cancer, as far as I am concerned, and have been one for quite some time.  Not meant to be a personal reflection on any individual.


I can easily see how people can believe that and it may be true.  But you have to look at the big picture.  From my experience with big business, I have no doubt in my mind that without any sort of protection, fair value as you call it, the middle class would be wiped clean.  Just think of where we would all be if we couldnt afford to buy or upgrade our computers every cupple of years.  Illegal immigrants from mexico making half the prevailing wage arent gonna be playing many computer games if they cant buy a computer.  How does the middle class affect your life and your familys.  Maybe your kid aint good in school and winds up on an assembly line.  Good luck making 20 bucks an hour in a non union shop.  Good luck making minimum wage in a nonunion country.

Offline Shamus

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2006, 02:46:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Choocha
When I was in Detroit I went outa my why to make sure that anybody working on my house was not affil. with any Union.  I hired a truckload of Mexican illegals to roof my house once.  They worked hard, didn't complain and finished the job for 1/2 price.


Yes but if you had a room addition to do and handed that same truckload of Mexican illegals a set of blueprints and said "rough this in for me" , I think you may have been in for a few surprises.

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Offline Urchin

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2006, 02:46:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
Uhm... how can we revert back to 19th century sweatshops if we already have laws on the books, thanks to unions, that prevent it?

Unions are useful, for very brief periods of time, to correct unfair practices. However, once the unfair practice is outlawed, why should the union continue to exist and hamper the business? Form it up when you need it, and disband it when it's no longer useful... unless you like paying for a bunch of people $100k+ a year to send you on a strike over a $1/hr pay increase. I'd be willing to bet that union dues are higher than what you'd gain off of a strike anyways.

There's a really big difference between corporations returning to sweatshops, and somebody demanding $30/hr for a minimum wage job.


Indy... was abortion illegal once?  Would a lot of people like to see it be made illegal again?  How can that happen if there are already laws on the books making it legal?

A lot of the "laws" you take for granted aren't laws, they are custom.  And the ones that are laws are so full of loopholes that they amount to custom anyway.  

Corporations are a means to transfer wealth.  They are not some altruistic group of rich people thinking "hmm, how can I improve the lives of my fellow americans?" they are groups of rich people thinking "hmmm... how can I cut costs today to fatten my quarterly bonus check even more?"

Somehow the vast majority of Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that making the wealthiest 1% even more wealthy is good for "everybody".  It isn't.  It is good for the wealthiest 1%, and it is good for the politicians they own.  That is about all it is good for.

Offline WhiteHawk

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2006, 02:47:43 PM »
I didnt have time to check to see if this some unpartial sponsered study or paid for by the Jimmy Hoffa foundation, but its a cut and paste.




Unions have a substantial impact on the compensation and work lives of both unionized and non-unionized workers. This report presents current data on unions' effect on wages, fringe benefits, total compensation, pay inequality, and workplace protections.

Some of the conclusions are:

• Unions raise wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise compensation, including both wages and benefits, by about 28%.

• Unions reduce wage inequality because they raise wages more for low- and middle-wage workers than for higher-wage workers, more for blue-collar than for white-collar workers, and more for workers who do not have a college degree.

• Strong unions set a pay standard that nonunion employers follow. For example, a high school graduate whose workplace is not unionized but whose industry is 25% unionized is paid 5% more than similar workers in less unionized industries.

• The impact of unions on total nonunion wages is almost as large as the impact on total union wages.

• The most sweeping advantage for unionized workers is in fringe benefits. Unionized workers are more likely than their nonunionized counterparts to receive paid leave, are approximately 18% to 28% more likely to have employer-provided health insurance, and are 23% to 54% more likely to be in employer-provided pension plans.

• Unionized workers receive more generous health benefits than nonunionized workers. They also pay 18% lower health care deductibles and a smaller share of the costs for family coverage. In retirement, unionized workers are 24% more likely to be covered by health insurance paid for by their employer.

• Unionized workers receive better pension plans. Not only are they more likely to have a guaranteed benefit in retirement, their employers contribute 28% more toward pensions.

• Unionized workers receive 26% more vacation time and 14% more total paid leave (vacations and holidays).

Unions play a pivotal role both in securing legislated labor protections and rights such as safety and health, overtime, and family/medical leave and in enforcing those rights on the job. Because unionized workers are more informed, they are more likely to benefit from social insurance programs such as unemployment insurance and workers compensation. Unions are thus an intermediary institution that provides a necessary complement to legislated benefits and protections.

The union wage premium

It should come as no surprise that unions raise wages, since this has always been one of the main goals of unions and a major reason that workers seek collective bargaining. How much unions raise wages, for whom, and the consequences of unionization for workers, firms, and the economy have been studied by economists and other researchers for over a century (for example, the work of Alfred Marshall). This section presents evidence from the 1990s that unions raise the wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise total compensation by about 28%.

The research literature generally finds that unionized workers' earnings exceed those of comparable nonunion workers by about 15%, a phenomenon known as the "union wage premium."

H. Gregg Lewis found the union wage premium to be 10% to 20% in his two well-known assessments, the first in the early 1960s (Lewis 1963) and the second more than 20 years later (Lewis 1986). Freeman and Medoff (1984) in their classic analysis, What Do Unions Do?, arrived at a similar conclusion.

_____________________________ _____________________________


Our pension paln is through the Union, it is managed by professional money guys and is doing extremely well.  As you all have heard, companies are taking pensions away from their retirees.  Lucent for one and there are many others to come.  companies are changing the laws that allow them to yank retirements away from their workers at the slightest sign of trouble.  Maybe the unions are evil but Golly-geemit, big corp aint no angel.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 02:52:23 PM by WhiteHawk »

Offline Urchin

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2006, 02:55:32 PM »
But I don't understand.... how can the companies change the laws?  They are.. laws!!!  

Lol.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2006, 02:57:05 PM »
Companies are groups of people.

Groups of people vote for politicians.

Politicians write laws.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Skuzzy

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2006, 02:59:43 PM »
Reads like a marketing ad for unions.  Let's don't mention the businesses they have shutdown/ruined, or the family members murdered or the fear inducing tactics used to entrench themselves in businesses.

The block of small businesses my Dad's business was one all went bankrupt 6 months after the unions got thier hooks into them.  While my Dad's insurance premiums went up due to the fire, he stayed in business up until he retired.  

Keep talking about how unions are a good thing.  I have alot more examples of this kind of crap.

One thing not in your study.  How much do consumer products prices go up strictly due to unions?  Someone is paying that floor sweeper's outrageous wages.

Yes, yes, all corporations are evil.  I guess that is why John Adler (CEO/President retired) of Adaptec Inc handed out large bonuses to all the employees every year they met thier goals.  I knew John well enough to call him friend.  He liked seeing people reap what they sowed.  He made his money off of the stock and did quite well for himself.  But come to think of it, I did too.  Yes yes, evil.

Now, that is not to say some corporations are not evil and plagued with greedy execs.  They exist.  They exist because people are too weak to just walk out and get another job.  who the heck wants to work for some greedy butt head anyways?  I sure don't.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 03:05:24 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Arlo

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2006, 03:01:42 PM »
Today I get to choose between rent and groceries. Ok ..ok .... no choice really. Rent.

Next payday I choose between child support and .... hmmm ... no choice there, either. ;)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 03:05:18 PM by Arlo »

Offline xrtoronto

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2006, 03:04:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
While at UPS, I got tired of the Teamster clones who knew only what the union boys insisted they know.  Like herded sheep.  If you tried to talk to these pro-union folks, all they could do was spout off the predictable pro-union mantra over and over.

I got injured on the job and my loving Teamsters dropped the ball.  I was out of work for a month and they did nothing.  But rest assured, the dues were deducted.  So call me biased or what have you....but the notion that unions are all about the members is hogwash.  Unions are about the union leaders and their political ambitions.


LePaul: I had an identical experience with Teamsters Union I was a member of for almost 20 years when I worked with Purolator Courier. When I did finally need some assistance they were of absolutely NO help whatsoever. One of my biggest gripes of all is unions. As you said: "Unions are about the union leaders and their political ambitions." I could not agree more!

Offline Skuzzy

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2006, 03:06:39 PM »
Yes, they are just as corrupt and evil as the evil corporate execs.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline SirLoin

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2006, 03:11:35 PM »
Sorry Skuzzy..I think u are way outta line here..I calling my Union steward on you.

:furious
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Offline indy007

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2006, 03:28:48 PM »
Well, being a shareholder of multiple companies, and an evil corporate executive in my own company, maybe I'm looking at it through tinted lenses.

So, I unionized my only employee (me) and ordered a strike. I wandered around in my driveway for a few minutes, got bored, called off the strike, and went back to work. The realization that I was losing money by the second kicked in.

Offline Choocha

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Why unions still suck
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2006, 03:47:20 PM »
SirLoin,


Call him quick because the CAW/UAW are staggered and on the ropes.  If Delphi is succesful in dropping thier hourly rate from 28/hr to 17/hr (they originally asked for 11/hr) your bro's are going to strike.  That's going to be fun to watch because that will put GM into chapter 11.  That's what Kurt Kirkorian is counting on.  Do you think he is buying up big chuncks of GM for fun?  Hell no.  Once GM goes into chapter 11, then they will ask the courts to negate thier agreements with the UAW/CAW.  Can you say 50% pay cut?  You don't work for GM but your bro's do, and they ain't going to be happy with you making 50% more than them.  Let's see, with a 50% pay cut, a man with a 9th grade education can start at GM for $15 with benefits.  That's still a bit on the high side.


Notice to investors: once GM goes through bankruptcy court and unchains inself from the UAW yoke, the stock will soar.  Why do you think Kurt Kirkorian is buying all he can.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 03:52:19 PM by Choocha »