The European Union

[Vudak]

I’ve been taking a class this semester on the European Union, and find is a fascinating concept.  

I can definitely see the EU as emerging as the preeminent superpower and hurdling the US by leaps and bounds economically.  It’s simply a matter of math.  Using the appendix from T.R. Reid’s “United States of Europe” I’ve added together the total population.  I’ve included Norway as it is probable that, once their oil runs low, they’ll join, but I’ve excluded Switzerland.  The figure is 458,938,000.  Compare that to a July, 2005 estimate posted on the CIA’s website for America: 295,734,124.  You guys have a hell of a lot more taxpayers.

Politically speaking, this means that Brussels, like it or not, already calls the shots for many American economic enterprises (ever wonder why we sell 2 liter bottles of soda?) and also has vast political power.  When it comes to an economic decision, you’re a supernation of 460 million.  When it comes to votes on any world issue, you magically break up into 25 separate votes to America’s 1.  I personally think this is BS (imagine what you’d think if our 50 states tried to do that), but if you can get away with it, more power to you.

When you take into thought the fact that kids in the EU are receiving schooling through the college level pretty much free of charge (at least by US standards), this is pretty impressive.  Within a few decades you’re going to have a continent full of highly educated tax paying citizens.  That should continue to contribute to your economy.

My studies have led me to the conclusion that it would be a very good thing for Washington to move towards a stronger tie with Brussels.  We don’t see eye to eye on many things, but if we could compromise on the majority of the issues we could truly be an unstoppable economic alliance backed by the world’s premier military should peaceful means fall through.

I was wondering what our Euro members think of the whole deal?  Does the EU work for you or are you against it and why?

[Yeager]

I can definitely see the EU as emerging as the preeminent superpower
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United States of Europe sure sounds better than American Union

[Stringer]

It's takes alot more than just weight of numbers.  The EU is not a single entity in the country sense.

If it were just numbers how do you explain, Japan, or Taiwan, or even South Korea's economic stature.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Stringer
It's takes alot more than just weight of numbers.  The EU is not a single entity in the country sense.

If it were just numbers how do you explain, Japan, or Taiwan, or even South Korea's economic stature.

True, not yet, however they've broken down the border taxes, etc. for EU members so far.  Basically meaning you don't have to pay a tax to ship goods from Marseilles to NW Italy for example.  America does have to pay those tolls to get their goods in.

Numbers certainly won't hurt though.  I'm just saying that if this place does continue to become more unified, they're going to increasingly become an economic check or balance to America.  They already are to a great extent.  (Think Jack Welch).

[Urchin]

One benefit the EU's corporations have is that they have an educated, CEO/executive population in the Western part, and a poorer subclass in the Eastern part they can exploit for cheap labor in the short run.

I think in the long run no country except maybe India or China will benefit from "globalisation", only the wealthiest people in Western countries will.  India and China may buck the trend and nationalize all the factories that Western corporations build there for cheap labor.

The rest of the population (EU included) will slowly slide down the standard of living scale until we meet Africa coming up, then the entire world will be equally bad off (except for the top .01% or so).

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Urchin
One benefit the EU's corporations have is that they have an educated, CEO/executive population in the Western part, and a poorer subclass in the Eastern part they can exploit for cheap labor in the short run.

I think in the long run no country except maybe India or China will benefit from "globalisation", only the wealthiest people in Western countries will.  India and China may buck the trend and nationalize all the factories that Western corporations build there for cheap labor.

The rest of the population (EU included) will slowly slide down the standard of living scale until we meet Africa coming up, then the entire world will be equally bad off (except for the top .01% or so).

You ever check out that documentary "The Corporation"?  It'd be right up your alley, but I have to warn ya, you just might shoot yourself afterward

[Urchin]

Nah, never heard of it.  

If it expouses the view that eventually one corporation will rule the world, I don't need to see it.

[Stringer]

Jack Welch lost his bid to buy Honeywell because it was a personal fued between him and the Italian that was head of the EU's Security Exchange Commission.  I was an employee of Honeywell at that time.

My company has a manufacturing plant in Belgium and an light assembly operation in the UK.  We have offices in just about every EU country.  I think I have a little real world experience to speak from here, and while agree that the EU has broken many barriers down amongst Europe's countries, including a common currency, it still has to struggle with it's output/labor efficiences and costs.  

I remember being told in the early 80's that Germany was going to be the economic power house of the world, then in the mid-80's the Asian Tigers of Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, would be the force that overtakes America as a economic super power.  

I think globalization will draw all competing economies closer together in the race, no question.

[Rino]

Wow, EU sounds good.  Now we can move the UN over to Brussels
and let the new superpower start running things.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Rino
Wow, EU sounds good.  Now we can move the UN over to Brussels
and let the new superpower start running things.

Oh c'mon now that's not what I'm advocating I'm just saying if we would move a few pegs closer to the average Euro's way of thinking, and if they would move a few pegs closer to the avereage American's way of thinking, I'd say there's nothing out there that could stop us, economically or militarily.

[storch]

there is no way the EU will ever even come close to matching us in power or prestige.  they are far too factional and petty.  it won't be long before we will be forced to cross the puddle again to smack one tard down because they couldn't play nice with their neighbors.  it happens around twice per century and there is no reason to suspect the 21st century will be any different.

[lasersailor184]

Vudak, I hate to say it buddy, but not only have you been brainwashed, but you are completely wrong.


Any power, either political or economical resides solely in the power of the military, AND THE WILLINGNESS TO USE IT.

Right now people believe the EU has power because of this.  However, I see it as a too fractured union to ever have anypower.  Just as the Confederate States of America failed (twice), so will the European Union when the time comes to bind together and act militarily.


The EU will have power til the very first incursion against them.  Then they, and any power they are "Supposed" to have, will crumble like a cookie.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Vudak, I hate to say it buddy, but not only have you been brainwashed, but you are completely wrong.


Any power, either political or economical resides solely in the power of the military, AND THE WILLINGNESS TO USE IT.

Right now people believe the EU has power because of this.  However, I see it as a too fractured union to ever have anypower.  Just as the Confederate States of America failed (twice), so will the European Union when the time comes to bind together and act militarily.


The EU will have power til the very first incursion against them.  Then they, and any power they are "Supposed" to have, will crumble like a cookie.

How am I brainwashed?

Completely wrong, perhaps, but brainwashed for reading a book?

Power is a loose term.  You're right, when push comes to shove, power does rest solely on the military and the willingness to use it.  But there are other types of power that at least can be exercised before the shoving starts.

A huge one is market power.  And the EU is a bigger market then us, plain and simple.  We can't ignore that fact - we can't just say "to hell with Europe" anymore - we need them to buy our products and they need us to buy their's.  If we tick them off too much, they can make our lives difficult, at least economically and politically, as we can do the same to them.  The question is, who would get more hurt?  I'll leave that to debate.

My point is that if we cooperated, and could get past this whole "Americans are Fascists"/"Europeans are pansies" idealogy that's going on on both sides, we could really accomplish quite alot.

I think it is a big mistake to not work together.

Are they a fractured Union currently?  Yep.  Is there a possibility that this fracturing will continue?  Of course.  However, I think it would be foolish to automatically assume it will fall apart.  I think it's equally foolish to just dismiss them as pretenders to the crown.  They are an educated, numerous people with western views (slightly different then ours), I don't see how the argument could be made that they can't accomplish just about anything they decide to do, just like us.

Of course, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day

[Gunslinger]

So explain to me how after so many years of the EU developed countrys (that have been around for hundreds of years longer than the US) still have unemployment rates as high as 25%?

The nanny rules of the EU will be it's downfall.  Govt. social welfare and private corporate intrests just do not mix.  They are like oil and water.  

I will not tout my views from a vast educated standpoint as I've never been to europe and I'm only quoting what I've read.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
So explain to me how after so many years of the EU developed countrys (that have been around for hundreds of years longer than the US) still have unemployment rates as high as 25%?

The nanny rules of the EU will be it's downfall.  Govt. social welfare and private corporate intrests just do not mix.  They are like oil and water.  

I'd almost agree with you on that one.  Still, I wouldn't say it'll lead to the EU's downfall so much to complete ineffectiveness militarily.  When you have taxes as high as 25% in some countries, you can support unemployment as high as 25%, but you sure as hell can't do that and support any decent army too.

So, if they ever get in military trouble, they're going to need our protection.  I'm just saying that, should they stay together, we're going to need their market.  Hence, we have to work together.

And I'm not trying to come off as some pompous "educated' salamander here and if I do, my apologies.  I'm just saying I've taken one class and read one book and have found the topic to be pretty interesting/looking for all your views.