Oil Change Instructions for Women and Men

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
Nope. Euro engines used to need a "break in" oil, but no longer. The last car I had that needed that was a 1982 Ford. I had a couple of Toyotas in the late 80s/early 90s. Can't remember if they used a "break in" oil. I don't think they did. There used to be an initial 1000 mile service on cars here at which point they'd change the oil - get rid of the "break in" oil and put in "normal" oil. That's no longer the case.  

Every engine has a break in period. You need to change the oil by 500 or max 1000 miles. I don`t care if it came from Mars.
You recently mentioned what you refered to as the the "strainer thing" on the Beetle instead of an oil filter. If you were paying attention you would also have noticed that the oil plug in the center of the "strainer thing" was magnetic. It was put there to attract metal particles from wear.
Especial during the break in period of any engine you will have some metal wear while it is seating in. that`s why you use a break in period , then change the oil at 500 to 1000 max. If you don`t , your are wearing your own engine out. That`s where the common sense part comes in.

I can't see how it's possible to improve on common sense by doing something other than what the vehicle's own maker recommends.

See reference to common sense above.

I think someone would look silly walking into a vehicle "dealership", and telling them that the service recommendation for their own cars was bollocks.

I think someone would be  more than a little silly if they didn`t already know better.
The maker and dealer are there to sell you their cars. If you wear one out fast, then more power to you. It suits them just fine.
I have seen some of the most absolute brain dead people calling themselves mechanics working for dealers, so I wouldn`t put too much faith in some of them. Not all, but a lot.

 I have a friend who has ran his own garage since graduating high school. He employees 7 to 10 mechanics. When the dealer mechanics in the area get stumped, they bring the cars to him to straightened out. He actualy knows his business instead of what someone who thinks they do wrote for a book.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Every engine has a break in period. You need to change the oil by 500 or max 1000 miles. I don`t care if it came from Mars.

No you do not! Read the freaking manufacturer's data, FFS. Yes I'm fully aware of magnetic sump plugs. Like I said, I don't change my own oil. I'll take the car to the dealer every ~18,000 miles, and they'll change the oil then. It is absolutely NOT NECESSARY  to change the oil at 500 or 1000 miles. Get out of the 1960s, Jack. I'm talking modern engines here. Why would I believe a 500 mile oil change was necessary when the vehicle maker themselves says 18000 miles is OK?

The maker and dealer are there to sell you their cars. If you wear one out fast, then more power to you. It suits them just fine.

Well skuzzy might agree with you, but AFAIC that's BS. They would much rather the customer took his car back every 3000 miles - just as it was in the old days. They'd have 6 times as many customer visits and would therefore be making more money. I follow the service schedule and don't have any problems. I don't know what you're talking about by wearing a car out fast by not changing the oil every 500/1000 miles. I had a Toyota which I ran for 6½ years and 84,000 miles. No "break-in" oil, and services at 9000 miles. It was just fine - as have been all my subsequent cars, despite a vastly increased service interval. The last car I had needed only 2 services/oil changes in the 48000 miles I had it. It was fine.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
No you do not! Read the freaking manufacturer's data, FFS. Yes I'm fully aware of magnetic sump plugs. Like I said, I don't change my own oil. I'll take the car to the dealer every ~18,000 miles, and they'll change the oil then. It is absolutely NOT NECESSARY  to change the oil at 500 or 1000 miles. Get out of the 1960s, Jack. I'm talking modern engines here.  

How many engines have you built and torn down/rebuilt Beet?
If any, you know better. Refer back to common sense.
Modern, smodern............it`s still and engine and it still wears especialy during break in. The manufaturer is there to sell you cars. Wear em out, they`ll sell you another. Common sense again.

Why would I believe a 500 mile oil change was necessary when the vehicle maker themselves says 18000 miles is OK?  

If you had ever built/rebuilt them, you would know and could have seen with your own eyes.
At break in you get fine metal shavings on any engine, no matter who makes it or where it comes from.
You don`t change the oil during break in, you are wearing your own engine.

They would much rather the customer took his car back every 3000 miles - just as it was in the old days. They'd have 6 times as many customer visits and would therefore be making more money.

Buzzzzzzzz!! Wrong. Profit margin for service work such as oil changes is very low compaired to major repair, etc. They would much rather you put some major damage to it, then bring it back so they can stiff you...............and the manufaturer if it`s still under warranty. Oldest game in the books for dealers.

I don't know what you're talking about by wearing a car out fast by not changing the oil every 500/1000 miles.

You don`t change the oil every 500/1000 miles. read what was posted. Even with a few beers you should be able to muddle through it.
You change oil on a new engine at around 500 to 1000 miles during break in. It gets the metal shavings out from the seating in process of all engine components. They will be there no matter what engine it is.

I had a Toyota which I ran for 6� years and 84,000 miles. No "break-in" oil, and services at 9000 miles. It was just fine

No, it wasn`t.

The last car I had needed only 2 services/oil changes in the 48000 miles I had it. It was fine.

No, it wasn`t.
 48000and 84000 huh? Is that about what you think is the life of an engine?
One new car I purchased I was putting 1500 to 2000 miles a week on it.
At your "everythings fine" level it would have had to have been pretty disposable. I put somewhere in the neighborhood of 350000 on it, loaned it to a friend who drove it for a few months, then gave it to one of my daughters and her family. They drove it for two years before selling it.
I changed the oil at around 3000 on it. Common sense again.

You are more than welcome to follow what the dealer and builder tells you in their little book. No skin off my nose.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
How many engines have you built and torn down/rebuilt Beet?  

How many have YOU built? I bet you haven't done as many as Audi or Volvo, whose service schedules I have quoted in this thread.

Modern, smodern............it`s still and engine and it still wears especialy during break in. The manufaturer is there to sell you cars. Wear em out, they`ll sell you another. Common sense again.

I think you're all off here, Jack. You see, cars used to need a "break-in" oil which would be changed at 1000 miles. Cars used to need servicing every 3000 miles after that. Cars used to need very careful handling in that first 1000-2000 miles... But things have changed, Jack. It's called Progress - or do you think that technological developments simply stopped in 1965? Progress is responsible for improved engineering techniques, and improved oils. Progress is also the reason that some of us have dumped the modem and now connect to the internet with a 1MB ADSL broadband connection, whereas others.... er, do not.

I think your remarks about manufacturers wanting to wear the car out prematurely are bollocks. If what you say is true, and that by changing the oil every 5000 miles and using a break in oil which got changed after 1000 miles was the key to long engine life, please explain to me why car companies offered a 1 year/12000 mile warranty on cars requiring this treatment, whereas nowadays cars like mine with an 18000 mile service interval come with a 3-year 60,000 mile warranty? According to you, cars with an 18000 mile service interval should wear out faster, so why is the warranty 3 times as long and/or 5 times the mileage as it was for cars that needed the old short interval oil changes? Cars today last much longer and are capable of much higher mileages than cars of 30-40 years ago, so how do you explain this anomaly? Could it be that you are... wrong? Or perhaps just a little out of date.

My cars have all been fine, so I don't know what you mean when you say "No it wasn't". I sold them on at market value. No-one ever said to me "sorry, gonna have to pull out of the deal because you didn't change the oil every 5000 miles". I sold 'em all on at market value, and that's all I care about.

I'm going to be up north next weekend. It will be a 600 mile round trip. Maybe I should organise an oil change for while I'm up there!

But on second thoughts, maybe not. Given the choice of acting upon manufacturer's recommendations versus the word of...er,  someone else, I'll stick with the former.


Skuzzy - I've found a road test of your car! - http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=201&model=757&description=Lexus%20IS

I was looking for Lexus service interval recommendations and found that it was 5000 miles!!! Then I realised that I was looking at the US .com website! As you will see in this (UK) test, the service interval is 10,000 miles. The reviewers were not terribly impressed by that, and remarked thus:

"Short 10,000 mile service intervals will make for plenty of trips to the dealer for average owners."

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
How many have YOU built?  

More than I care to count or would be able to remember at this stage.
I`ll take your non-answer as "none". That`s what i thought. Might get your hands dirty as you stated before.

I think you're all off here, Jack. You see, cars used to need a "break-in" oil which would be changed at 1000 miles

Yea, they used to need a break in period.....and still do. If it`s an engine...it needs a break in period. Refer back to common sense once again. If you choose not to....hey.....you certainly wouldn`t be the first not to know to.

But on second thoughts, maybe not. Given the choice of acting upon manufacturer's recommendations versus the word of...er,  someone else, I'll stick with the former.

Wonderful.
Jessica Simpson is interested in selling you some skin care products.
Also some company is interesting in selling you a sea vessel. lt was stated that it had a small hull leak, but could probably be fixed with JB Weld. I beleive they said the name was Valdeez or something like that. At any rate, it comes with an owners manual, so if the instructions are followed everything should be just fine.  

[mora]

What do you guys actually mean with "break in oil"? If you mean the first oil change after 1000km or so, then it's something that a few manufacturers still recommend.

The oil in the new engines after factory is NOT "break in oil" but the same stuff that the manufacturers are recommending you to use. They used to have special "break in oil" decades ago, and you HAD to change it soon or the engine would be ruined.

[Skuzzy]

Been reading a lot, and found some intersting reasons why cars sold in the U.S. require shorter oil change intervals.  And Beet, I could care less what some magazine has to say about a car.  I am more thanqualified to write and article about a car, and I could say your Audi is junk in it for various reasons, if I wanted to.
And Beet, I have already stated, in a couple of threads, my car's oil change interval is 5,000 miles.  I actually change it every 3,000 miles.  This is for several reasons.  It goes to how I drive, and the weather conditions I drive in.
Most owner's manuals have a caveate in them.  The recommended oil change interval is a general recommendation.  If you drive in adverse weather (read extreme temperature ranges), dusty conditions, or do a high percentage of stop and go driving, you should consider changing the oil more often.

Now on to the show.

The U.S. courts have been rather harsh to automobile manufacturers over emission controls.  Case in point;  Honda was sued by the EPA for violoating the emissions standards in the 96 and 97 year models of all thier cars.  Honda fought and lost the case.  The result:  Honda has to update every 96 and 97 year model free of charge, for a period of 14 years or mileage not to exceed 150,000 miles.  The violations were not sufficient enough to warrant a recall and only applies if the car is brought into a dealership for repair to any part of the emission control system.

There are several cases like this, against various automobile manufacturers, on the books.  So, the manufacturer, in order to insure the emission control systems on cars sold in this country will pass muster for 7 years, or 100,000 miles, requires more frequent oil changes.
The manufacturers determined the more frequent oil changes will keep the car within U.S. federally mandated emissions levels for that period of time.

The EPA has acknowledged if the manufacturer does require more frequent oil changes and the emission control system fails, they cannot be held responsible for the failure.

So, therein lies the reason for the more frequent oil changes required in the U.S.  Bottomline, the manufacturers agree longer oil change intervals will result in faster deteriation of the emission control systems in cars.  It does not go to engine wear, per se, just emissions.

[mora]

Skuzzy, that might have something to do with shorter service intervals, but it has nothing to do with oil change intervals. Why? Engines just don't wear prematurely if they are properly serviced according to manufacturers specifications even here in Europe.

If the car is serviced properly at the specified intervals, all the emission related components will not fail due to lack of service. If a component related to the emission control systems fails between services, the MIL light will advice the driver. I'd guess that it's the users resposibility from there on, if he keeps driving the vehicle? To what extent is the manufacturer liable? If an ignition coil fails is the manufacturer liable if the car is less than 7 years old? How about this scenario: I own a car and a spark plug fails. I keep driving for 300 miles and change the plug myself. The catalytic converter takes some damage, but the car still passes emissions. 5 years later the cat fails completely. Is the manufacturer liable for the repair?

Of the 1000 or so vehicles I've inspected I've failed less than 5% due to exhaust emissions. I can only remember one example where the reason was premature engine wear, and that car hadn't been serviced properly. In at least 99.x% of the cases the fault has been unrelated to the motor oil. The most common cause is a fault in the ignition system. The problem is either acute, or the has previously been an ignition fault, and the catalytic converter has sustained damage.

[Skuzzy]

Mora, are the emission requirements there the same as they are here, worse, better?  I figure there are differences in the emission standards around the world.  I could be wrong.  Gasoline mixes are also different.  The EPA requires certain additives to be put into gasoline sold in the U.S.  And in certain areas of the country where smog is acute, there are other additives required to be placed in the fuel sold there.  Yes, even within the U.S., there are different mixes of fuel sold.

The more frequent oil change intervals help the automobile maintain emission control standards for a longer period of time in the U.S.  It could go to the type of driving or even the fuel mix here.  It may not.  All I know is the manufacturers who came under fire came up with the proposal, proved it effective, and got the EPA off thier back.

[mora]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Mora, are the emission requirements there the same as they are here, worse, better?  I figure there are differences in the emission standards around the world.  I could be wrong.  Gasoline mixes are also different.

I can't tell because I don't know the US reguirements.

Here's how the emission test goes here.

The engine is inspected to make sure that all the emission related components mentioned in the registration are in place. The emissions are then measured when the engine is running freely at idle and at over 2000 rpm.

The limits are:

Idle: CO 0.5% HC 100 ppm O2 <5%

>2000 rpm: CO 0.3% HC 100 ppm Lambda 1.00 +-0.03 O2 <5%

Gasoline engined cars from 2001 forwards also reguire an EOBD(OBD-II) test.

The only thing I know about the US tests that they might involve a dynamoter test? That would make them way more advanced. Is anyone familiar with how the tests are performed there?

[lazs2]

so beet is poluting the air with his long service intervals and dirty oil?

shame beet!

just talked to an engine builder buddy and guy I use for machine work and he said that motors with short oil change intervals look a lot better when torn down than those that he considers neglected... He also said that he never seen a motor that was on synthetic that looked like it had much wear...  You can still destroy em (that's why he sees em) but it is hard to wear em out.

lazs

[mora]

[lazs2]

mora... I just had a dyno smog test on the Lincoln but I threw away the paperwork after it passed... the results are transmitted electronicaly to the state DMV so there is no need to save em.  Your O2 levels sound high tho.

lazs

[Skuzzy]

mora, I am trying to find something comparable to how you present your emission samples.  The EPA states it all in grams/mile, and not percentages.  
I also noted the measurements are based on two tables.  The first table shows the acceptable levels for the first 5 years or 50,000 miles for a vehicle, while the second table is 10 years or 100,000 miles.  A slight increase in emissions is allowed after 5 years or 50,000 miles, but must still meet the emission requirements up to 10 years or 100,000 miles.
Footnotes in various EPA documents allow an automobile manufacturer to have some emission failures during the 10 year/100,000 mile period of time, but if they are considered excessive, the EPA has the right to force he manufacturer to warranty all cars/makes of that year model for some period of time.
This appears to be what happened to Honda.  The vehicles of the year models in question had excessive failures in testing and the EPA made Honda (via court action) pay for any work needed to keep the said vehicles within emission standards.

I did find a section showing the differences between U.S. and Euorpean emission standards.  It seemed pretty general, but showed the U.S. to have the tougher emission standards, as compared to Europe.

I have no idea how to validate the information as I do not know who sets the emission standards for Europe.

EDIT:  Mora, dynometer testing is currently only required in California for emissions testing.  It is optional for all other states, but expected to be required within the next two years for all states.

[mora]

Originally posted by lazs2
mora... I just had a dyno smog test on the Lincoln but I threw away the paperwork after it passed... the results are transmitted electronicaly to the state DMV so there is no need to save em.  Your O2 levels sound high tho.

lazs

The O2 level should be close to nil, but it's obviously not a polluting component. If it's over 5% there's a significant leak in the exhaust, which causes a failure.