Why wasn't the UN involved in the decision to attack Afghanistan?

[Boroda]

Indian, let's put it this way: a policeman does not need to be handcuffed by the laws when he thinks he meets criminal.

Toad. Chechen war is a real tragedy, but all the "human rights watchers" simply forget about ethnic Russians in Chechnya. They also forget that the people whom they call "freedom fighters" are bandits who take maternity houses as hostages, blow up apartment houses full of sleeping innocent people and have fun torturing people, with some journalists from HRW gang videotaping it, saying they "want to make this war more touching".

Current "caucasian war" was not started by Russians. After that bloody surrender in 1996 Chechens were left alone. Noone prevented them from living according to medieval Shariat laws, kidnapping people and slavery. But in Summer, 1999, they invaded Dagestan under the flag of "Jihad", attacking local Moslims. After Russian army kecked them away with the help from local Dagestanian population (that is really unhappy to have such "neighbours") - they started terror acts in Russia...

HRW and other friends of that gangsters don't remember that Chechens kidnapped and simply slaughtered foreigners from Red Cross and other charity organisations. They blame Russians for it. While Chechens like foreign hostages: they usually can pay much more then Russians or Caucasians...

So, Toad, all this rhethorics is a roadkill, invented by a bunch of moral freaks.

After what mr. Powell said about "negotiations with rebels", I can assume that if US will catch Osama - it will be useless to ask you guys help us catch Basayev and other murderers.  

Grunherz, I always thought that it were stupid nationalistic politicians who ruined your country. And if you call Yugoslavia "communist" country - I wish you could live a few months in USSR. You lived in paradise compared to us. AFAIR - you are from Croatia. Did you leave your country after the "final solution of Serbian problem" in Srpska Krajna?.. I just wonder how this great military operation was covered in Croatian media.

Sorry for personal attack, but if you look at me as at Russian who "supports communists" - then don't be offended when I look at you as at Croat who plays fascist pilot.

Now - back to the UN issue. My point is that such operations must be backed up by UN or any other international organisations as much as poossible. I don't want some trigger-happy politician sending people to death to spoil all the positive effects of the forming union. We have seen enough of political stupidity in the last century, let's not repeat the mistakes.

[Boroda]

Another link on Chechen problem. Take a look, it is worth it:
 www.kavkaz.org

This brilliant site is stationed in the US. Anyone who believes information from it - please send flowers to kavkaz.org domain registrant:

Movladi Udug, 10 Bird Lane, Orlando, FL 32860 US

[Toad]

Santa, I don't think anyone "pissed" on UN peacekeepers.

They do a good job.. when they go.

And that's the point, I think. Getting the UN to actually DO anything is nearly impossible.

My particular point has been stated before.

It's obvious to all that the Taliban government of Afghanistan sux in the human rights area, particularly for women.

They're getting a new government because the Taliban aided and abetted an attack on the US.

So, they need help. This is indeed a function for which the UN is best suited.

We'll need peacekeeper "brains". I personally think the Scandanavian countries are best suited. Long history of good human rights in their government, no major involvement in any conflicts with Islam that have built up "hate". Repected as "neutrals".

We'll need peacekeeper "muscle" because the sniping, shooting and problems will go on until the new government gets established. Best forces for muscle have to come from Islamic states. The only folks that can discipline Muslims are Muslims. Otherwise, it's the old whine about the "infidels keeping the Muslim man DOWN."

The US? We're best suited to kick the living doo-dah out of the Taliban. We're going to do that, however long it takes.

Face it; we're crappy peacemakers because we're the ones that have been the "muscle" for so long. Right or wrong, people don't like you even if you made them do the "right thing" if you had to use force on them. Think the Balkans are going to have warm fuzzies for the US? I don't... but it's relatively peaceful there now and they have a little hope that their kids will grow up.

But we can't make the peace in Afghanistan. It'll never work.

Now I don't think I'm the most brilliant world political observer, so these basic thoughts must have occurred to some at the UN.

So, where's the action? We're holding back the war waiting for the politicians to catch up. Time to MOVE.

No disrespect to the actual men that do "peacekeeping" duties at all. They do good work.

[Toad]

"a policeman does not need to be handcuffed by the laws when he thinks he meets criminal."

Boroda, right there is your problem.

I think you're going to find most of the civilized world doesn't agree with that statement.

[Krusher]

StSanta wrote:
Man.
Never have I seen such a bunch of egoistic arrogant loudmouth amazinhunks.

You guys have pissed me off.

Defending the US, sure, you'll do that. All while pissing on the soldiers on the ground of the UN.
------------------------------------------

I must have missed this, I cant find any reference to your post that people are pissing on UN soldiers. Unless pissing on the UN is the same as pissing on the UN soldiers.

BTW you do know that America has absolutely no people in high ranking position in the UN? The UN recently thought it was funny to disrespect the US by voting them off two important issue committees (human rights and drug trade) and replacing them with known violators of those topics?

It doesn't bother them to continue to ask the USA for more and more money, after all we are the largest single financer of the UN by far. Hell even when we were behind on dues and had to listen to the UN squeak and moan about it we were still the single largest contributor. Maybe we should get 1 vote per state like the EU has 1 vote per member.  Please excuse our arrogance for wanting some control over how OUR money is spent or our troops are used.

[Udie]

The UN is a joke and does nothing but cost lives. The UN sat back at watched as how many muslims were slaughtered in Bosnia? How many were hacked to death with machette's in Africa while the UN was "worried" about Malosovich.

 They kicked us off the human rights commitee, what a joke to see who they let on in our place.  They let Syria into the freaking security councel just a week or two after the WTC attack.  SYRIA?!?!?!!?!?!?! One of the biggest harborers of terrorists in the world.

 I fully expect the UN to throw a wrench in the gears of this war, at the cost of many lives im sure.  I'm suprised they haven't already.  It wouldn't suprise me if this thing turned into a NATO vs. UN war.


 Santa,

 This is to the political burocracy that is the UN, not to any troops that serve thier countries through the UN.  They'd be better off serving NATO in my opinion, but I'm sure they haven't got much choice on where they get stationed. But the burocratic body that they have to serve just plain sucks.  If I were in the military and got assigned to the UN i'd do what ever I had to not to serve under that blue helmet, even if it ment a dishonerable discharge.

 They don't stand for freedom or liberty....

[Dowding]

...Real nice move Dowding, unfortunately your the one who looks bad. The guy obviously edited that out for a reason, most likely a cordial reason. This is proof positive that your here for nothing more than argument..or just to piss off Americans.

Oh please, you are joking right?!!

You want to know why he edited it out? Perhaps because it made him look like a complete idiot. Cordial reason? My arse.

He didn't even have the guts to leave it in there.

Or perhaps you believe I should just allow myself to be called a 'commie studmuffingot bastard'? Well, if you read the thread you'll find I let the insult pass, but the guy acted like an even bigger fool and edited it out.

And you have the gall to blame me for his comments?

Proof positive? I like a discussion/debate - I've got to ask what are you doing here if that is so abhorrant to your sensibilities?

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]

[Boroda]

Toad, sorry, another probable misunderstanding. Again, and slowly: I thought that Indian's phrase about "handcuffing by the UN regulations" is ridiculous just as the phrase you quoted.

Countries have to obey international laws and conventions, just like people in the street. In current terms US anti-terrorist actions CAN be defined as "agression". I have no doubt that certain groups or countries WILL use this term. Not very smart to leave such possibilities. And it looks exactly like US keeps it's habbit of doing whatever they want, without any attention to international laws. Laws are for loosers (other countries).  

[GRUNHERZ]

I fully agree Boroda Jugoslavija was a relative paradise compared to other communist nations, in fact I would say it was an extremly comfortable lifestlye. However, it came at a cost and it was unsustainable. This cost came as a result of attitudes developed during the communist era. Take for example our local hotel. In the past they would simply get government food shipments every summer and all was well. Now they can barely run the place when the local managers have to have responsibilty for it all. Its little practical things like that make me hate communism, how it strips real responsibility and accountability from individuals. Even worse is the whoopee black market that had to pop up in every communist country because of the governments stupid economic policies and restricions.

And yes I agree Jugoslavija was an easy Communist country as Tito was pretty moderate in his Communism and steered a neat course between the East and West. If I hate communiosm from there I cant imagine how much Id hate a more representative iediotic hardline communism elesewhere.

As for me being a Croat who plays as a fascist pilot, well.... All I can say to that is if I started playing AH/sims three or four years ago I would have been a Croat who playes a USN/Marines Corsair pilot, as the F4U was and still is one of my favorite RL fighters.


As for operation "Oluja" we did what was neccesary to free our territory and the operational plan was coordinated and approved by our US Army allies and advisors.

I left, fortunatly, just as the war started. But my mother was nearly decapitaded by a mortar and several of my uncles in Vukovar were "never" seen again after being taken prisoner by Serbian forces who overrran the Hospital. I dont hate serbs or anytinhg, my cousin is Serbian , I do hate the war and goodamn diddlying communist BS that led to it. whoopee communist "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo" that swept over underlaying ethnic tensions for decades.


As for your comments dowding I edited the post very quickly after I put it up because I wrote it in an exterme monent of anger and found it unnaceptable after I calmed down. Take that as you wish.

[batdog]

Borada...HELLLOOOO.... you still flying that red flag man? You sound like your smoking crack...the cheap stuff at that.

 FACT: THE MAJORITY of the WORLD's NATIONS have okayed the U.S's response. DO you really think that NATO would endorse a gunslinger action that lacked credence?
Do you think that so many nations...INCLUDING your nation would lend support to its former foe w/out reason?


 xBAT

[Boroda]

Grunherz, your POW on "communism" is reasonable and honest. Unlike many people who declare "crusade against communism" you know what you are speaking about. Many people call Jugoslavija "communist county", but don't know, for example, about what kind of regime was in Albania at the same time.

As for Srpska Krajna - what your army have done there is almost exactly what Soviet army have done in Chechnya in Feb, 1944. Now it is called a "horrible crime of Stalin's regime". But the way you describe it almost makes me sick... You guys have a lot of credit from Western countries if you can afford such explainations. You definetly are more equal...

Civil war in Jugoslavja (I use different spelling, in Russian it is spelled Югославия was a stupid nightmare for us. Your country was an ideal for many Russians, many people wished we could have this kind of soft socialism, and we were literally stunned when we saw this war in 1991... Maybe it was the main reason that we didn't have civil war here: even the stupidest politicians saw what can happen. Our countries suffered from the same set of national problems, left from post-WWI times.

Batdog, the only Red flag that I will wave will be the Banner of Victory, that doesn't associate with what you call communism for me. Again, now in caps: I SUPPORT THE ANTI-TERRORIST OPERATION. But some things leave me nervous. Someone's mistake can send all the political/ideological benefits of the current union down the drain.

[Dowding]

Enough said on the matter, Grunherz. Don't call me a communist or a studmuffingot again, please - I'm neither. It simply makes you look like a complete moron, which, going by your last few posts, would be doing you an injustice.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]

[batdog]

There can be no action w/out risk. You have to see if the action is worth the risk. Odds are only hindsight will tell you one way or the other.


xBAT

[GRUNHERZ]

I guess im uncomfortable with a strong/controlling UN role in this because of my experiences of watching the UN in our civil war. They just strike me as indecisive, incompetant and impotent. Remember Srebrenica? This UN "safe area" was easily overrun  by a serb army while the armed dutch UN bluehelmets stood by doing nothing as the serbs put all men and boys on busses, who were then never seen alive again. I dont see the UN as being decisive or willing to make real sacrifices that will be neccesary. This is not a punitive action this must be treated as a real war, no different than WW2 or anything else. I just dont see the UN being tough or united enough for such a thing. I dont mean to sound callous or harsh but frankly the UN seems more interested in feeding the Taliban than killing it. Does anyone really think the Taliban will just let the UN give food to people now, and not take it for themselves. If you have been following the news lately you see China in particular pushing for a stronger UN role. Our current cozyness with China notwithstanding I still dont honestly belive that China's interests are fully supportive of ours, remember the truly bizzare EP3 incident last year?
Plus honestly what would the UN do? Put sanctions on the Taliban? What could they take away?

This has to be an American thing with all the real support we can get. If anyone disagrees well thats honestly their decision to make.

[-ammo-]

nice quote which I feel is completely appropriate.--

Came across this short passage by John Stewart Mill, which I think is pretty apropos:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.  The decayed and degraded state of moral...feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.  A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."