Question about the south

[Tarmac]

Slavery was just one issue in a long list of grievances the South had against the Federal government.  The war was fought over secession -- whether a state which had ratified the Constitution had a right to back out of it.  The North fought to preserve the Union, and the Southern States fought to be able to leave if they wanted to.  

Even a born and raised Yankee like me can see that.

[bkbandit]

It is apart of our nations history and if it was only used in a way of respect there wouldnt be any debate.  Whether the war was about slavery or not its a part of american history but when u got the ku klux klan raning around with it it changes the nature of the flag.  I honestly see no purpose for it other then the top of the general lee. Its like me haveing a flag with 13 stars. Yes we have to pay respect but alot of times its not used in this way, i have seen some up here in nyc and these arent people showing respect.  When i look at our flag it represents alot of things aswell as all the men though fought from the revolutionary war up until now in operation iraqi freedom. Paying respect to only one era of soldiers and forgeting the rest is kinda disrespectful in itself.  Without the ww2 guys this is thread would be in german.

[nirvana]

Yes yes, that's all fine and dandy, how about the ice cream?

[DiabloTX]

Originally posted by nirvana
Sorry to bring this up again, what flavour of Blue Bell would "y'all" recommend I try?  I'm still a virgin to Blue Bell so don't go mad wild on me;)

I'd say "cookies 'n' cream" but there are so many to choose from.  I grew up on Blue Bell but, alas, I don't consider it the be-all-end-all ice cream anymore.  BUT, it's still very good stuff.  If you are anywhere near Kemah when you go through Houston let me know.

[nirvana]

With the fear of restarting this thread, I venture in.  Blue bell ice cream is.......the best i've ever had.  It's creaminess is on level with frozen custard, a very good thing.  I didn't go crazy, just homemade vanilla, but it is goooood stuff.

Being that I don't enjoy shopping for souvenirs i didn't venture out much.  I trhought I say the battle flag of the army or North carolina or whatever in "Surf Style" or whatever that place is, but I didn't go in.  Long story short, I got no flags, boo hoo.  Some places we visited were the Pink Pony Pub and Lambert's.  Went deep sea fishing on Tuesday, was a good time but fish weren't nearly as big as they first time we went 3 years ago.  Other then that, just watched the babes at the beach:aok

Trip back was excellant I think there were 2 traffic jams between Alabama and Louisiana, 30-45 minutes each.  And then.......it stopped.  Literally, we went about 5 miles in 2 hours.  After 4 hours of cussing and sitting in the truck, we broke off at 1:00AM for a pit stop and a course re direction, I-10 was going no where fast.  Blah blah blah, we got back around 3AM.  Stand by tickets are fun too.  After watching our scheduled flight go off without us, the nice people at Southwest (my aunt is a big shot supervisor for them) got us a rerouting through Chicago Midway then to Denver.  8 hours later i'm back in Denver so I can't complain too much, everything came together fine.



P.S. Does anyone know if Coast Guard helicopters and unmarked Black Hawk's zooming over the beach at 200 feet is normal down by Orange Beach?  Seemed like there were 1-2 flights almost daily

P.P.S. Does anyone know what happened at I-10 in the Houston area Friday night?  I heard a semi-truck exploded on the bridge but I can't find anything in the news.

[DiabloTX]

P.P.S. Does anyone know what happened at I-10 in the Houston area Friday night? I heard a semi-truck exploded on the bridge but I can't find anything in the news.

Welcome to Houston!!!  It's a daily occurance on I-10!!!


And that's why I never, ever, drive I-10 within Houston proper or east to Beaumont (if I can help it).

[Toad]

Now Holden, that's cherrypicking the document to the extreme.

Why don't you quote the first part of the document where SC delineates the foundation of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.... you know all the parts where

FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATES

are repeatedly mentioned?

And don't forget the closing:

We, therefore, the People of South Carolina, by our delegates in Convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent State; with full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.

[nirvana]

Originally posted by DiabloTX
Welcome to Houston!!!  It's a daily occurance on I-10!!!


And that's why I never, ever, drive I-10 within Houston proper or east to Beaumont (if I can help it).

We ended up going up to Liberty then taking some road (90?) to beltway 8 I believe.  Then to Pearland somehow, just glad I wasn't navigating

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by nirvana
I'm taing a trip to Orange Beach, Alabama this week, driving from Houston to there, is there any place I could find a confederate flag?  My friends are all about southern pride.  Anyway, a squaddie said they sell them at mom n pop establishments and novelty shoppes.  Do supermarkets sell them?  Does anyone know somewhere close to there that has them?  Thanks.

LOL if you cant find a confederate flag to buy in the south. Your either blind or never got out of your car LMAO

[Slash27]

Originally posted by nirvana
P.S. Does anyone know if Coast Guard helicopters and unmarked Black Hawk's zooming over the beach at 200 feet is normal down by Orange Beach?  Seemed like there were 1-2 flights almost daily

 

Yes it is. Did you notice by chance if that big 3 story blue beach house was still there? Its about a half mile or so west of Live Bait.

[nirvana]

That would be the second option Drediock.  I don't recall any 3 story blue buildings Slash, the damage, hurricane i'd assume, was quite extensive down there.


On another note, I told you my family were alcoholics earlier.  We got in on Saturday about noon Monday they had completely run out of beer, as far as I know they had brought at least 5 24 pack cases of Milwaukee's Best Light and some Busch Light for my cousin.  I'll do the math while you probably throw up from even thinking about drinking Milwaukee's Best 5X24=120 And then another 24 cans of Busch 144 cans of bear urine MMMM MMMM.  


Anyway, I estimate that by the time they checked out saturday they probably spent $100 on beer just that week.  Oh yeah, and the 3 bottles of vodka and the liter of Jack Daniels.  Add in 15 people including 7 underage drinkers and you have a world of fun.  Myself, I never drink, and my youngest cousin didn't drink so we were the only sober ones.  Yep, that's my family...

[Reschke]

Originally posted by nirvana

P.S. Does anyone know if Coast Guard helicopters and unmarked Black Hawk's zooming over the beach at 200 feet is normal down by Orange Beach?  Seemed like there were 1-2 flights almost daily

The Orange choppers are probably part of the Coastie Training base up in Mobile where they teach those boys how to fly rescue missions. When I lived in Mobile a neighbor in my apartment complex who worked there as a simulator tech for the Coast Guard would get us into the Dauphin HH-65A and the HU-25 Falcon jet simulator a couple of times a month after hours. That was a cool thing because it was the full cockpit of the drug interdiction/rescue plane the Coast Guard used back in 1997/1998. We would jump in and setup flights from Mobile down to the gulf then over to New Orleans and back.

At Lambert's did they try to hit you with those big a@@ rolls they throw around in there? A couple of friends of mine own Live Bait down there but we haven't been there in a couple of years. We have moved our beach trips over to Navarre Beach, FL and Destin/Ft. Walton area where I used to go as a kid 2-3 times a summer.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Toad
Now Holden, that's cherrypicking the document to the extreme.

Okay here's the whole thing...

Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union
The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.

And now the State of South Carolina having resumed her separate and equal place among nations, deems it due to herself, to the remaining United States of America, and to the nations of the world, that she should declare the immediate causes which have led to this act.

In the year 1765, that portion of the British Empire embracing Great Britain, undertook to make laws for the government of that portion composed of the thirteen American Colonies. A struggle for the right of self-government ensued, which resulted, on the 4th of July, 1776, in a Declaration, by the Colonies, "that they are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; and that, as free and independent States, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do."

They further solemnly declared that whenever any "form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government." Deeming the Government of Great Britain to have become destructive of these ends, they declared that the Colonies "are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."

In pursuance of this Declaration of Independence, each of the thirteen States proceeded to exercise its separate sovereignty; adopted for itself a Constitution, and appointed officers for the administration of government in all its departments-- Legislative, Executive and Judicial. For purposes of defense, they united their arms and their counsels; and, in 1778, they entered into a League known as the Articles of Confederation, whereby they agreed to entrust the administration of their external relations to a common agent, known as the Congress of the United States, expressly declaring, in the first Article "that each State retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every power, jurisdiction and right which is not, by this Confederation, expressly delegated to the United States in Congress assembled."

Under this Confederation the war of the Revolution was carried on, and on the 3rd of September, 1783, the contest ended, and a definite Treaty was signed by Great Britain, in which she acknowledged the independence of the Colonies in the following terms: "ARTICLE 1-- His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz: New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that he treats with them as such; and for himself, his heirs and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."

Thus were established the two great principles asserted by the Colonies, namely: the right of a State to govern itself; and the right of a people to abolish a Government when it becomes destructive of the ends for which it was instituted. And concurrent with the establishment of these principles, was the fact, that each Colony became and was recognized by the mother Country a FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATE.

In 1787, Deputies were appointed by the States to revise the Articles of Confederation, and on 17th September, 1787, these Deputies recommended for the adoption of the States, the Articles of Union, known as the Constitution of the United States.

The parties to whom this Constitution was submitted, were the several sovereign States; they were to agree or disagree, and when nine of them agreed the compact was to take effect among those concurring; and the General Government, as the common agent, was then invested with their authority.

If only nine of the thirteen States had concurred, the other four would have remained as they then were-- separate, sovereign States, independent of any of the provisions of the Constitution. In fact, two of the States did not accede to the Constitution until long after it had gone into operation among the other eleven; and during that interval, they each exercised the functions of an independent nation.

By this Constitution, certain duties were imposed upon the several States, and the exercise of certain of their powers was restrained, which necessarily implied their continued existence as sovereign States. But to remove all doubt, an amendment was added, which declared that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people. On the 23d May , 1788, South Carolina, by a Convention of her People, passed an Ordinance assenting to this Constitution, and afterwards altered her own Constitution, to conform herself to the obligations she had undertaken.

Thus was established, by compact between the States, a Government with definite objects and powers, limited to the express words of the grant. This limitation left the whole remaining mass of power subject to the clause reserving it to the States or to the people, and rendered unnecessary any specification of reserved rights.

We hold that the Government thus established is subject to the two great principles asserted in the Declaration of Independence; and we hold further, that the mode of its formation subjects it to a third fundamental principle, namely: the law of compact. We maintain that in every compact between two or more parties, the obligation is mutual; that the failure of one of the contracting parties to perform a material part of the agreement, entirely releases the obligation of the other; and that where no arbiter is provided, each party is remitted to his own judgment to determine the fact of failure, with all its consequences.

So far, no reasons fo secesson, just laying foundation...

[Holden McGroin]

In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the *forms* [emphasis in the original] of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.

Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.

We, therefore, the People of South Carolina, by our delegates in Convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent State; with full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.

Adopted December 24, 1860

[Committee signatures]

I guess slavery wasn't the issue. Only the bold parts were about that. The real crux was just the right to have slaves, get slaves back when they ran away, the tax levied on slaves, and the thought that those damn yankees shouldn't tell SC what they should be doing about slavery.

[nirvana]

They did life guard training down at the public beach but I wasn't sure about Coast Guard training, sounds like a believable story to me though.  And yes they chucked the big bellybutton rolls at us.  That sorghum is good stuff mmhmm.