Author Topic: F18s vs SU-29s  (Read 1360 times)

Offline -sudz-

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F18s vs SU-29s
« on: May 09, 2001, 10:47:00 AM »
I saw Tales of the Gun last night on the History Channel about the evolution of the gun in aircraft.  It wasn't very enlightening but it did mention that recently the US and Germany did some training exercises pitting F-15s,-16s, and -18s against some German piloted Su-29s.

I was wondering if anyone heard about this and, if so, what were the conclusions of pilots regarding the Su-29 as an advesary.

Thanks,
-Sudz

Offline Boroda

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2001, 11:30:00 AM »
Twin engine jet fighter vs. a light unarmed aerobatic plane!?

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Offline Yoj

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2001, 12:23:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
Twin engine jet fighter vs. a light unarmed aerobatic plane!?

I think he meant the Su-27.  Or maybe the MiG-29.  They flew mock fights against both. The results showed that both were formidable opponents in expert hands.

In fact, one retired admiral seriously suggested buying Su-27's as replacements for the F-14 when its phased out, because the Navy has no immediate plans for a follow-on Air Superiority fighter, and he felt the F/A-18, as good as it is, could not fully replace the Tomcat.  A Navalized Su-27 re-equipped with American engines and avionics would do the trick.

- Yoj

Offline -sudz-

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2001, 12:28:00 PM »
D'OH!  I guess it was the MiG-29, the one with the infrared sensor to the left of the cockpit.  

AG Sachsenberg

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2001, 12:39:00 PM »
YUp they had a battle out in Vegas between german Mig 29's and american counterparts.  Su-27 is awesome but look at its successor and you will see why the F-22 is not up to par on a few things.  

funked

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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »
Air & Space magazine did an article on this a couple of years ago.  Here's what I remember:  The Hornets could turn inside the MiGs but the MiGs had better rate of climb and acceleration.  So in a visual range fight, the MiG was the B&Z plane to the T&B of the Hornet.  However the MiGs got hammered in long range (beyond visual range) engagements because of their avionics.  But they did fine if they "lived" long enough to get close to the Hornets.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2001, 01:36:00 PM »
 The doctrine of US airforce places much more importance on guided weapons as opposed to the guns.
 miko

AG Sachsenberg

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d:
The doctrine of US airforce places much more importance on guided weapons as opposed to the guns.
 miko

Once within 30 miles the mig starts to gain an edge, after that it starts to drastically switch to the Mig.  One thing many must note when some of the test that were done they were with "export version" of Mig.    

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2001, 02:34:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
YUp they had a battle out in Vegas between german Mig 29's and american counterparts.  Su-27 is awesome but look at its successor and you will see why the F-22 is not up to par on a few things.  

True, but not a really fair comparison.  The F-22 is not intended to establish superiority by dogfighting.  Its advantages are supercruise and invisibility.  Its limited thrust vectoring probably allows it to deal with a visual range fight with current generation fighters, but if it works the way it should, it ought to be able to avoid those for the most part.  There is nothing that can compete with the Su-37 for maneuverability, but the Su-37 is as easy to spot on radar as any current fighter, and can't cruise supersonic.  

Like all fighter engagements, F-22 vs Su-37 would go to whoever better applied proper tactics to his plane's strong points.

- Yoj

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2001, 02:58:00 PM »
Ah so the AH equvalent would mean that the F-22 is the cv hugging dweeb who let's the 88's take out the engine oil of my 109, and if it fails, runs to cv acks to try to do the same, and if that fails too, gets turned into a burning wreck by my 109  .

Sometimes I wonder if the US don't place *too much* importance to technologiical gadgets. It's fine when you got the time to maintain and control them, and got a controllable situation, but I wonder if it doesn't have some drawbacks too? (usually things tend to have drawbacks as well as good sides, i've experienced  ))

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Offline Wingnut_0

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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2001, 03:33:00 PM »


The Mig-29's are assigned to JG77 I believe and are on the phase out list as the Typhoon gears up for release into the Staffeln.

As Sachsenberg stated, they were export models the the old GDR and have cheap radar equipement.  Those test are quite a few years old, but if I remember well, the Mig pretty much owned the F-16 in VR and BVR fighting.

When it comes to stealth, I think it's highly overated.  Stealth is usefull against country's that do not have a fully integrated radar capability.  There's been several reports in defense circles that some country's have made great gains in radar tech that have basically cut stealths effectiveness down to about 30%.

Plus remember that the F22 has it's missle bay's..usw housed inside the plane.  Once it's fighting time, it blows it's stealth cover.  Against ill-equiped nations it'll reign supreme, versus a modern equipped air force....well i have my doubts.


Offline Soda

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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2001, 03:36:00 PM »
Funked,
  Read a similar article about F-18 vs Mig29 engagements.  The Helmet mounted sight of the Mig was considered a major advantage, although there were several issues regarding limitations on the Mig.  The cockpit workload was considered very large, so much so it was doubtful that it could even perform a BVR engagement.  Also, the radar signature was huge, apparantly far larger than expected, as it was on the Su-27.  The C/D models of F18 were much smaller radar targets and even the early A/B models were better.  The summary came to the conclusion that the Mig would hold the advantage in a close quarters dogfight within 10 miles or so if not just for the short range missiles is possessed and the helmet mounted sight. It had to get close but would most likely be shot at by AMRAAM/Sparrow before then (most Mig's were rather under equipped in the self defense equipment as were earlier Su-27's.  Very few chaff/flare launchers or ECM).

The Su-27 is a fantastic plane, but it also has some issues.  Early versions had many of the same pilot workload issues as the MiG-29, as well as very large radar signature.  I guess the large intakes that led right on to the faces of the engines made it possible to use blade count from radar returns to id Su-27's at long range.  More seriously, the actual combat load weight of the Su-27 was very misleading.  Airshow performances were always performed at minimum weight, sometimes without radar installed (some ballast installed to compensate).  Wing loading numbers were VERY good at light loadout, but the average weight of a russian missile, and the total fuel load for combat made the wingloading numbers change dramatically.  The Saturna engines were thirsty, and while it carried all the fuel for long range that meant carrying a lot of weight.  The actual maneuver limits placed on it in it's combat configuration were more than what was shown at airshows.  They were still impressive, don't get me wrong, but considered more comparative to planes like the F-15 than the AH N1K  

Didn't the US buy a bunch of Mig-29's from a eastern block country not more than a year or two ago?  The Germans had several after reunification that were used in dissimilar ACM training, but I thought the US has several of their own now.  Not sure if they are just stored or in use.

As an additional note, the Mig29 SMT, and other similar upgrades (they have several versions on offer) offered a western style cockpit and avionics.  Several countries felt this overcame a number of the pilot workload issues and thus the market for Mig-29's, and upgrades, is considered substatial.

-Soda

Offline Toad

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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2001, 03:47:00 PM »
I worked with a guy that took the F-16's over (was "lead"). I believe he said they took 8 aircraft but it might have been 4.

I don't think he'd agree with a lot of what has been said here.

I wasn't there, so I won't quote him here. No point in starting another flamefest.    

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Offline Yoj

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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2001, 04:06:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Soda:


Didn't the US buy a bunch of Mig-29's from a eastern block country not more than a year or two ago?  The Germans had several after reunification that were used in dissimilar ACM training, but I thought the US has several of their own now.  Not sure if they are just stored or in use.


-Soda

Yes they did - last I heard they were being actively flown as "Agressor Squadrons" in training exercises, but that was a while ago, and they may now be mothballed.

- Yoj

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2001, 04:16:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnut_0:


The Mig-29's are assigned to JG77 I believe and are on the phase out list as the Typhoon gears up for release into the Staffeln.

As Sachsenberg stated, they were export models the the old GDR and have cheap radar equipement.  Those test are quite a few years old, but if I remember well, the Mig pretty much owned the F-16 in VR and BVR fighting.

When it comes to stealth, I think it's highly overated.  Stealth is usefull against country's that do not have a fully integrated radar capability.  There's been several reports in defense circles that some country's have made great gains in radar tech that have basically cut stealths effectiveness down to about 30%.

Plus remember that the F22 has it's missle bay's..usw housed inside the plane.  Once it's fighting time, it blows it's stealth cover.  Against ill-equiped nations it'll reign supreme, versus a modern equipped air force....well i have my doubts.

Maybe so - but what "modern equipped air force" is it likely to face in the next 50 or so years?  Britain? France?  Sweden?  Even Russia can't afford to upgrade to Su-37's (and I hear they can get a good deal on them), and it has no foreign market for the plane.  Export sales don't offer much threat anyway - look at the MiG-29 in Iraqi hands.  Good airplanes but mostly marginal pilots.  Personally, I can't think of any place likely to have to money and inclination to field a credible state of the art force before a successor to the F-22 is developed.  

- Yoj