Author Topic: U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate  (Read 2482 times)

Offline Boroda

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2006, 11:36:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Excel1
The AR-10 wasn't helped when one of them with a fancy titanium barrel blew-up during trials the US Army conducted with the rifle.


Are you serious? Titanium barrel?! Incredible... Is it possible to find any details about the alloy they used?

Titanium is a "fashionable" word, nothing more, as a construction material it has so many drawbacks that in most of the cases steel or aluminium alloys perform better and usually make lighter parts.

Offline Chairboy

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2006, 12:32:52 PM »
Wasn't titanium tremendously difficult for the Soviet Union to get?  I recall reading something about the USSR importing massive amounts of white paint to process the titanium oxide out of, but I'm not motivated enough to go and look in the intarweb right now because my dough machine just finished and it's time to make pizzas.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2006, 12:57:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Wasn't titanium tremendously difficult for the Soviet Union to get?  I recall reading something about the USSR importing massive amounts of white paint to process the titanium oxide out of, but I'm not motivated enough to go and look in the intarweb right now because my dough machine just finished and it's time to make pizzas.


No, actually it was the U.S. that had a hard time getting it. If memory serves correct, the CIA got the stuff from Russia via the back door in order to let Lockheed have it for the SR-71.
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Offline Chairboy

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2006, 01:02:00 PM »
See, now I just knew that I'd say something dumb if I didn't take a second to look it up first.    From Wikipedia:
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In 1950–1960s the Soviet Union attempted to corner the world titanium market as a tactic in the Cold War to prevent the American military from utilizing it. In spite of these efforts, the U.S. obtained large quantities of titanium when a European company set up a front for the U.S. foreign intelligence agencies to purchase it. Indeed, titanium for the highly successful U.S. SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft was acquired from the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War.

Thanks Virgil!  I wonder where I heard the paint story...
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Offline Boroda

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2006, 01:14:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Wasn't titanium tremendously difficult for the Soviet Union to get?  I recall reading something about the USSR importing massive amounts of white paint to process the titanium oxide out of, but I'm not motivated enough to go and look in the intarweb right now because my dough machine just finished and it's time to make pizzas.


You are definetly wrong. Only here you can get such incredible things like titanium showels. It's what titanium is really good for ;)

After USSR broke apart - titanum was one of the tastiest things to export. Laws in the early-90s taxed or prohibited exporting of strategic raw materials, but allowed to export manufactured goods made of them, so my former boss managed to list titanium slabs in the customs role as "lifting crane counterweights". When asked why anyone needs such expensive counterweights - he said that it's for harsh humid and hot weather conditions where ordinary counterweights corrode :D This thing was already a joke in 1994 when I worked for him. He also was famous for exporting a train-load of natural honey, selling like 400 tons of natural Uzbek honey, plus 20 tons of food-grade aluminuim alloys (canisters)... and a ton of food-grade rubber (canister insulating rings) :D

Offline Boroda

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2006, 02:08:38 PM »
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In 1950–1960s the Soviet Union attempted to corner the world titanium market as a tactic in the Cold War to prevent the American military from utilizing it. In spite of these efforts, the U.S. obtained large quantities of titanium when a European company set up a front for the U.S. foreign intelligence agencies to purchase it. Indeed, titanium for the highly successful U.S. SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft was acquired from the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War.


LOL!!! :D

reminds me of how our institute got Convex supercomputes that were banned for export into "communist" countries by COCOM. Hijacked a truck crane, loaded them into the building through the windows at night...

We dimantled this supercomputers last year, i still have 2 dozens of 120mm fans from them, we strapped them of everythig usefull... 2xC1, one C2... Bought through Finland IIRC... My firend who works for Hewlet-Packard was stunned when he saw this monsters...

Offline Suave

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2006, 02:21:46 PM »
Remember when I posted a long time ago that I thought that the 270 winchester would make a good military rifle round?

Well.. IN YOUR FACE FLANDERS!

Offline Ack-Ack

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2006, 02:40:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
....they also missed a hell of a lot more.

Did they take into account snipers?

BTW the M16 started out as the Armalite AR15 impressing an Air Force General (yeah, a REAL authority on weapons) by blowing up some watermelons.
.


Gen. LeMay.  He was impressed with it at the BBQ they showed the weapon at that he immediately placed an order as the new rifle for the AF security troops.


ack-ack
« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 02:45:57 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2006, 02:43:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Are you serious? Titanium barrel?! Incredible... Is it possible to find any details about the alloy they used?

Titanium is a "fashionable" word, nothing more, as a construction material it has so many drawbacks that in most of the cases steel or aluminium alloys perform better and usually make lighter parts.



How about the new AK that you Reds made a few years back?  Whatever happened to that weapon?



ack-ack
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Offline lasersailor184

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2006, 03:06:38 PM »
Wow, a lot of information is just plain out wrong.

First, we'll start with the decision to switch to 5.56.  It was originally made after army trials.  The 5.56 was designed to shatter upon impact.  This created a nasty wound.  They theorized that a single round was just as or more deadly then a .308 round.  Thus, you can carry more rounds for less weight and be more effective soldier.  

A couple of problems existed with this (we'll get to the m-16 itself later).  The first is that the 5.56 does make a nasty wound (if it's moving fast enough to shatter), however it does not incapacitate.  It takes anywhere from 1-5 bullets to incapacitate your target.  Thus, based on the shear amount of bullets alone, the standard soldier is LESS effective carrying less weight, but more bullets.

Next, the AR-15 is a pretty fine weapon.  It is the reason why the M-16 was chosen as the main rifle.  However the M-16 was changed significantly from the AR-15 so that the gun can be made cheaper.  Mainly, there were no cleaning kits, the rifling twist was changed to be absolutely wrong for the standard bullets given, and the insides were prone to jamming.  

Now, shot for shot, it is debatable whether or not a perfect M16 is the equal of the M14.  Most people would say it's not even close, but it's still up for debate.  But the M16 wasn't used like the m14 was used.  The m16 was used as a full auto gun.  It was rare for it to fire a single shot (excepting when it jammed after a single shot).  So the same amount of bullets of 5.56 is not equal to the same amount of bullets of .308

Next, clarification of terms.  Assault Rifles are guns that carry intermediate bullets.  Bullets which are more powerful then a pistol round, but less powerful then a full rifle round.  Examples, M-16, Ak47, L85...  A battle Rifle is a gun which shoots a full rifle round.  Being able to shoot full auto is not a requisite.  Examples, Galil, M14, FNFAL...

Quote
I beg to differ. that's precisely what it was designed for.. the first 'assault rifle' was the Russian SVT-40.. firing the massive 7.62x54 round. Hard to find one with a barrell that's not shot our these days. When the Germans began capturing them in 1940, they sent 'em back for evaluation. The troops, meanwhile; kept a fair number themselves and they employed it as a sniper weapon... a testament to it's accuracy and the ability to shoot multiple times (10 round mag) without any body movement as required with a bolt action.. sniper position isn't given away.


Absolutely wrong.  The first assault rifle was a russian weapon from around the end of WW1 (I always forget the name of it).  But if we were to ignore this gun, the first assault rifle is the M1 Carbine.  If you analyze it, you realize that it really is the first assault rifle.  Intermediate Cartridge, large magazine capacities, ease of fire, ease of aim, a decent range for such a small cartridge, and mostly it's ability to be altered to Full Auto.  A good number of M1 Carbines had the sear pins filed down to make it full auto.  At the end of WW2 the gun makers analyzed this practice, and just started to issue M2 Carbines.  They were the same thing, except that they had selective fire.



Anyway, I personally think the problem is not the 5.56 round, but the "One for All" mentality.  I believe that the mixed weapon squads of WW2 and Korea (especially on the american side) are the real answer to the problem.  The mismatching of ammo is not as much of a problem as some people would have you think.  If I had control of a squad of 12 guys, I'd do this:  4 M16's, 3 M14's, 1 DMR, 1 SAW, 3 UMP45's.  And then I'd split extra MG ammo between the SMG's.
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Offline Neubob

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2006, 03:09:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
How about the new AK that you Reds made a few years back?  Whatever happened to that weapon?



ack-ack


Is this the one of which you speak?

reciprocating barrel, AN 94

I'm assuming that it fell by the wayside for the same reasons that everything else of potential value does in that country... Not enough promise of immediate profit, not enough development capital, not enough cash to grease all the necessary wheels on the way up the long and inefficient chain of command.

Sorry Boroda. Capitalism really did a number on the Rodina.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 03:22:39 PM by Neubob »

Offline Hawklore

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2006, 05:34:19 PM »
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html


I think this shows why the military or whoever is in charge of what size bullet we use, thinks 5.56 is better..

Honestly, it dosn't matter what size bullet you use, it's still gonna be debated.

You use a smaller round, you get quicker, more accurate shots...

But you need to hit a meaty/mass area to do any damage.

You use a heavier round, you get slower, more need for post shot adjusting, extremely accurate shots, that dropem from the soundwave alone..

:aok


Yes I'm a 7.62 fan..
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Offline Hawklore

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2006, 05:37:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184

Anyway, I personally think the problem is not the 5.56 round, but the "One for All" mentality.  I believe that the mixed weapon squads of WW2 and Korea (especially on the american side) are the real answer to the problem.  The mismatching of ammo is not as much of a problem as some people would have you think.  If I had control of a squad of 12 guys, I'd do this:  4 M16's, 3 M14's, 1 DMR, 1 SAW, 3 UMP45's.  And then I'd split extra MG ammo between the SMG's.


I've got to second that..
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion;
respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life." - Chief Tecumseh

Offline Ack-Ack

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2006, 07:33:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
Is this the one of which you speak?

reciprocating barrel, AN 94

I'm assuming that it fell by the wayside for the same reasons that everything else of potential value does in that country... Not enough promise of immediate profit, not enough development capital, not enough cash to grease all the necessary wheels on the way up the long and inefficient chain of command.

Sorry Boroda. Capitalism really did a number on the Rodina.



Yeah, that's the one.


ack-ack
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Offline Excel1

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2006, 08:44:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Are you serious? Titanium barrel?! Incredible... Is it possible to find any details about the alloy they used?

Titanium is a "fashionable" word, nothing more, as a construction material it has so many drawbacks that in most of the cases steel or aluminium alloys perform better and usually make lighter parts.


Good call Boroda,

I  did some checking. I was wrong about the titanium barrel. The barrel was aluminium with a steel sleeve and titanium muzzle brake. Sorry for the bum steer.

Excel