This just in - pounding Iraq

[Boroda]

Deja, launches can be detected by ground radars, E-3s, etc. Yes, many SAMs are semi-active, and follow the reflection of a tracking beam. I am not sure, but AFAIK S-75 (the most popular good old SAM that did so good in Vietnam) has a radio-command targeting, so "tracking" must not differ much from just "painting" targets on a view screen. I'll ask people who worked with it.

As for "shutting down" instead of destroying - now Iraqui will probably rearrange their AA system and in case they will decide to launch - it should be a nice surprise for "peacekeepers".

The whole bombing thing looks absurd for me.

Raubvogel, USSR never (once again and slowly: N E V E R) wanted Afghanistan to become a Soviet republic.

I see that you don't understand the heart of the matter. Before USSR passed off we had two superpowers in balance, both restricted from doing bad things by the very existance of the opponent. Now the US world domination is a very sad thing. I agree that Soviet world domination could be even worse - but we never saw it in RL.

As for being sorry for me - I feel sorry for you too. It's sad, but the US politics and maybe even the whole American mentality is based on deep misunderstanding of other cultures and mental inflexibility. Didn't you ever think that "US bashers" here usualy have one common idea (or a stereotype?) of Americans, their politics and culture? When dozens of people from around the world say the same thing about you - isn't it a reason to think about it a little?

Wow... I ended up with an attack on American mentality   Strange, came to this in the first post in this thread written when I am sober...

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[pzvg]

<sigh> Naah, pass on this
Quote, never teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig
Meaning it is impossible to convince them that we might be in the right, I withdraw from useless banter, We bombed them, guess what? They are gonna turn the SAMs back on and we're gonna bomb them again, Give that consideration in your world view.
(Pzvg has very cosmopolitan world view, might be caused by AK round lodged in my leg)

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Cabby]

C'mon, Boroda, get a grip.  The USA is populated by just about EVERY race and ethnic group in the world.  And MOST of 'em are glad they are here and don't give a flip what the "rest of the world" thinks.  Who cares.

I can't remember how many Euros, Asians, etc. i have known who would have given ANYTHING to get permanent status to stay in the USA.  

Make no mistake, the USA looks after it's OWN interests FIRST.  If the "rest of the world" has a better way of doing things than the USA, then fine and dandy, knock yourselves out.  Just don't ask for any more financial hand-outs.  

Livin' In The USA,

Cabby

[AKDejaVu]

 

Deja, launches can be detected by ground radars, E-3s, etc.

None of these are on the plane.  Any of these detection methods would involve immediately being able to contact the target.  Seconds count.  So.. while they can detect it, they do little good to the pilot that needs those precious seconds to react.

 

As for being sorry for me - I feel sorry for you too. It's sad, but the US politics and maybe even the whole American mentality is based on deep misunderstanding of other cultures and mental inflexibility.

LOL! And this coming from the culturally diverse mecca of the universe.. Moscow.

Boroda, have you been to the "Chinatown" in Moscow?  How about a predominantly black portion of town in Russia?  How about a Vietnamese community?  Ooooo.. how about an Afghani community?  Are there any of these in Moscow?

It simply amazes me that you make this statement.  I also find the last sentance to be a tad bit more than ironic.

AKDejaVu

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
We already tried - something called the British Empire (do a search on the net for it)... The method of influence was probably just as acceptable/moral/ethical back then as yours is now.

Dowding, surely you jest?

You would not in your wildest fantasies attempt to compare the goals and methods of the British Empire in its colonialist "conquistadorian" grandeur to the goals and methods of the US in the post WW2 international environment?

You tried? Tried to conquer and rule every less technologically and less politically developed nation that you could land troops on before any of the other colonial powers beat you to it!  



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-01-2001).]

[Toad]

Boroda,


I strongly disagree. I think the "The whole US politics in WWII was to" defeat the Nazis and end the war in Europe... as well as defeat the Japanese and end the war in the Pacific.

Here is the entire text of the US-Soviet Lene Lease Agreement.
 http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/amsov42.htm

Please note that the agreement stipulates the loan of this equipment/supplies/money/whatever on a TOTALLY interest free basis and also that no adjustment for inflation is required.

Now if you can think of another nation that would lend the Soviet Union $11,100,000,000 under those conditions, I'd like to know who it is or was.

Adjusted simply for inflation, that mere $155 million still owed would be a very large sum right now. But that wasn't the deal and no one expects it to be adjusted.

"ARTICLE V
The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will return to the United States of America at the end of the present emergency, as determined by the President of the United States of America, such defense articles transferred under this agreement as shall not have been destroyed, lost or consumed and as shall be determined by the President to be useful in the defense of the United States of America or of the Western Hemisphere or to be otherwise of use to the United States of America."

I would guess that we wanted that stuff back because it would be more useful in "the defense of the US" if the Soviet Forces didn't have it to use in their occupation/conquest/enslavement of all of Eastern Europe.  

It was probably cheaper to destroy it than ship it home. It was certainly cheaper to destroy it than let Soviet Forces use it to threaten the remaining part of Europe that they had not yet occupied.    

As for reparations, I really don't know. I wasn't aware of the US paying reparations to the Soviet Union after the war.  

I sort of remember something about us helping both our former enemies AND allies get back on their feet economically.

But then every nation in every war has done that, right? Rebuilt the defeated nations? Helped them get back on their feet as independent, free nations again?

Sort of like what you guys did for Poland and all the rest?  


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-01-2001).]

[Boroda]

Cabby, Deja, you surprise me. Is it true that you are proud that different national groups have to live in ghettos!?

Some national communities here in Moscow prefer to live together, but usually they are refugees like Kurds (funny to see them turn a 6-stored apartment house into something like a middle-asian village  ) or work together like Vietnamese. Most of the other national groups - Caucasians, Jews, Kazakhs etc. live among Russians and don't have any problems.

Do you know that illegal immigration is a big problem in Russia now?

BTW, "Kitay-gorod" ("China-town" in Russian) is a large district in a center of Moscow, near Kremlin.

Cabby, if US cares only for itself - then why the hell it interferes everywhere with it's "humanitarian bombings"? Here is an answer. Even Yugoslavian bombings were arranged for some economical reasons. Remember how the "euro" exchange rate dropped during that war?

What really amazed me was Bzhezinsky saying that the whole "human rights" anti-Soviet capaingn had the only purpose: propaganda and political pressure. He even said that noone ever cared for human rights. Reminded me of the fact that "human rights" issue was one of the reasons for the dividing of Czechoslovakia in 1938...

If you are afraid of radar tracking and still fly inside SAM ranges - you are stupid or you are provoking SAM crews. That bombings look like another twist of a cowboy's "shoot first" habit in an inernational scale.



------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[AKDejaVu]

 

Is it true that you are proud that different national groups have to live in ghettos!?

LOL! OK.. I missed where I said anything about ghettos.  I guess that's something that you just assumed all on your own.  Once again, you prove my point for me.

 

Do you know that illegal immigration is a big problem in Russia now?

Why do I get the impression that ANY immigration would be seen as a big problem in Russia?  BTW.. how many of those immigrants are from the US?  How many are Chinese?  How many are Korean?  How many are Mexican?

Do you really have any idea of what you are talking about?  You aren't trying to compare illegal immigration in Russia to the US are you?  You do know that this nation is about 99.7 % immigrants don't you?  Please.. tell us once again how much experience on the subject you have.

My boss is Chinese.  Of the 9 engineers I work with, 3 are caucasion, 2 are Korean, 1 is Chinese, 1 is Vietnamese and 1 is Irish

My neighbors across the street are Ukranian.  They own a senior care center.  They've been in the US about 10 years.  My neighbors two houses to the right are Vietnamese.  She rides the bus downtown with my wife.  A friend from work (work is 25 miles from my house) lives one block over.  He is black.  Our families go out together all the time.

I'm an average joe here in the US.  Do you know of anyone that is surrounded by this much cultural diversity near you?

AKDejaVu

[LJK Raubvogel]

You must have done very well in the Party Boroda  

[DB603]

S!

 I have never had such a laugh before I found this thread. Virtually USA,Great-Britain and Russia are wrestling who's right/wrong.Everyone throws an argument and the other tries to sink it and so the debate goes on and on.Really interesting reading has this thread been offering.You guys really know how to debate and seem to stand behind Your opinions.Maybe this would  be a better way to solve conflicts...a heated debate on a BBS  

[Dowding]

 

...before any of the other colonial powers beat you to it!

This is exactly the point I'm making; that the actions of the British Empire would have been emulated by any other nation, if they had had the chance.

I think this is the position the US is in today.

You also have to put the past actions of states in their correct historical context and not judge by modern standards.

Take the Romans - brutal, deeply socially divided and very decadent by modern standards. But compared to most other societies at that time, they were positively enlightened.

 

Tried to conquer and rule every less technologically and less politically developed nation that you could land troops on before any of the other colonial powers beat you to it!

[/b]

And the US/NATO and USSR weren't fighting a war of ideological conquest? Admittedly, the US were just a bit (  ) more forgiving in their methods, but the principal was the same. Stop your immediate rival from making territorial gains, by any means neccessary. The US/NATO had the added difficulty that they were ultimately accountable to their populace, and nothing too overt could be attempted.

Communism allowed the Russian leadership to do as it pleased, but in the end, I think that contributed to their downfall.

But my overall point still stands - most Americans seem to think that US super-power ascendency marked some kind of datum point in world history - as if the US was the first to acheive this status.




[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-01-2001).]

[Tac]

hehe,they just copycats  

[AKDejaVu]

 

But my overall point still stands - most Americans seem to think that US super-power ascendency marked some kind of datum point in world history - as if the US was the first to acheive this status.

Actually, I don't know any Americans that believe we were the first to reach this.  We, as a rule, know where we came from.  We know who we had to defeat to get here.

I guess its just as fair to say that most Brits seem to feel as if they still hold this status, merely because they did early last century.

AKDejaVu

[Park]

Well, maybe it's just a general impression then.

America's ascendency seemes pretty inevitable. Large population, extensive natural resources, stable government, ideology, good diplomatic and trade relations with the rest of the world. It would have taken a lot to bollocks that lot up.  

OTOH, during the 20th century, Britain fought two world wars, with a small population and limited home country resources, losing control over her colonies and her wealth. It would have taken a genius to come through that with an Empire intact after all that. I guess it was Britain's turn to take a back seat in world affairs, and the Empire had had its day.

[Toad]

You miss the piont entirely.

We're not in it for world conquest. Never have been.  

We're in it because it's easier to do this than have to join in a World War somebody else starts every 35 years or so! ;0