legalize all drugs...

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by lukster
Alcohol is but one drug and even after prohibition was repealed the government has been going after bootleggers to this day.

We're not talking about legalizing and regulating one illegal drug here. We're talking about dozens with new ones popping up all of the time. Basically we're talking about deregulation of all drugs, legal and illegal.

I think we are talking about recreational drugs.  Citizens will still want prescription drugs to be tested and approved.  Crack, cocaine, pot, etc. would fall into a recreational drug category and require labeling with warnings much like cigarettes and alcohol.  Drugs that have a 20% fatality rate per use probably would never be approved; but who would want to make them or take them when a variety of rec. drugs are cheap and relatively much safer.  Some kids would still huff and die because they couldn’t buy real drugs, but adults would buy their drugs at specialty stores much like how they buy alcohol.  “New” drugs might not pop up so often because the market and profit margin would be a tiny fraction of what it once was.

[Birddogg]

Originally posted by eskimo2
I think we are talking about recreational drugs.  Citizens will still want prescription drugs to be tested and approved.  Crack, cocaine, pot, etc. would fall into a recreational drug category and require labeling with warnings much like cigarettes and alcohol.  Drugs that have a 20% fatality rate per use probably would never be approved; but who would want to make them or take them when a variety of rec. drugs are cheap and relatively much safer.  Some kids would still huff and die because they couldn’t buy real drugs, but adults would buy their drugs at specialty stores much like how they buy alcohol.  “New” drugs might not pop up so often because the market and profit margin would be a tiny fraction of what it once was.

Crack/cocaine a recreational drug.  Those things ruin lives and bodies.

[Vudak]

There's a few points I'm seeing here that just don't make sense.

First of all, there is NO WAY that any of us, working out of our basement, could produce a "cheaper alternative" drug to any drug which a corporation is legally mass-producing on an assembly line.  It just isn't possible.

The only way a "cheaper alternative" would come out is if another corporation streamlined the process.

There's capitalism for you, in all her beauty.  And in this case, it would be a very good thing.  Companies compete with each other, drive down the prices, the lower the prices, the less chance someone's going to turn to crime to get their fix.

Secondly, about the casino reference...  That's completely different.  Before the casino popped up in your region, someone would have to travel far (Vegas, Atlantic City, whatever) to gamble.  As of right now, with drugs being illegal, they have to drive a max of 15 minutes to get just about anything they want.  Once they are legal, they'll have to drive a max of about 15 minutes to get just about anything they want.

People just don't understand this.  There is a far greater amount of Americans doing drugs now then is generally "accepted."  I, for one, have never been asked to take a national survey on the matter, and I personally don't know anyone else who has.  But I do know hundreds of people who do some sort of illegal drug with a fair regularity.

I *really* doubt that legalizing all drugs will lead to a TRUE upshot of users.  I DO believe that legalizing all drugs will lead to a TRUE assessment of how many people actually do it as of now.

I'm sure some people will try a drug for the first time, sure...  But I have serious doubts that they will choose heroin, coke, crack, meth, or one of the harder drugs simply because they can't get in trouble for it.  I think they'll shy away from them then for the same reason they do now - because they fear for their lives, as they should.

Of course, if the drugs were legalized, and companies were producing them to some sort of government standard (as with tobacco and alcohol), I'd be willing to bet the government would try to set a standard that would be much less likely to kill someone then the crap you can currently find on the street.

Lazs had a really good point about the whole process of cutting up meth.  I've seen that done too (amongst other things), and let me tell you, it's really no suprise so many people are dying from the stuff as it is.  You wouldn't believe the crap people put in it.  It's not all rock salt.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Shuckins
With legalization of drug use addiction would undoubtedly go up, leading to even more health and mental problems for the country to deal with.Highway fatalities might also rise, with large numbers of stoned drivers wending their way down the nation's thoroughfares.

As I have stated before, before the war on drugs began, the price of a gram of cocaine was $100 a gram, and it was cut many times. After the war on drugs started, the price dropped as the market flooded, down to $25 dollars a gram, and with less cut. Then heroin prices started to fall, as the market became flooded.

With your logic, the war on drugs increased cocaine addicts by at least 75%

[lukster]

Originally posted by Vudak
Of course, if the drugs were legalized, and companies were producing them to some sort of government standard (as with tobacco and alcohol), I'd be willing to bet the government would try to set a standard that would be much less likely to kill someone then the crap you can currently find on the street.
 

We already have a legal mind altering drug, alcohol. If we legalize, regulate, and mass produce the current illegal drugs how long do you think it will be before someone comes up with an even riskier drug? If that isn't also legalized we'll be right back where we started.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by Vulcan
And the same goes for smoking weed. From growing the stuff to the users, its an addiction, it does brain damage, its been proven to increase the likelyhood of psychosis in teens (Swedish study).

To hold marijuana up as a victimless crime is either extremely naive or blatant one eyed-ness.

OK, as a former smoker/dealer/grower (I live in Canada; cops leave small-time guys alone in suburbia), I take issue with this statement. During highschool, I smoked more pot in a year than most 'regular' smokers do in a lifetime. At no point was I ever addicted to marijuana. The day before and day of a big hockey game? Didn't smoke, no problem. Exams coming up? Stopped smoking for a few weeks, no problem. Hockey team's playoffs coming up? Quit smoking for a month or so, no problem.

Only an extremely weak person can be "addicted" to marijauna. Up until January of this year, I was ripping the bong every few hours every day. This went on for about 10 months or so. I decided I was getting too damned lazy, and was barely able to drag myself into the gym twice a week, so I quit. I didn't have any withdrawals, I didn't fiend for it. I didn't really know what the hell to do with myself when a bunch of people would show up at my house and rip the bong with my roommate, but that isn't addiction.

And as for doing damage to the brain? Minimal at worst. I rarely went to class in highschool, and my senior year I finished with an average in the high 80's. First year university, smoking entirely too much, average in the mid-70's. I blame alcohol and hangovers for that. My short-term memory wasn't great during my years as a burnout, but 8 months off and it's back to normal.


Marijauna should be legal (in Canada - I don't really give a **** what you do in the US, your weed sucks anyway ). It's less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes, and easier to get when you're underage anyway.


edit: Can't believe I forgot to mention this. At one point, I had a nasty coke habbit (that's what happens when you've got more illegitimate money from dealing pot than you know what to do with), and you know what I did to kick that addiction? Kept myself bombed out of my tree, ripping the bong every few hours every day. It worked.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Vudak

Of course, if the drugs were legalized, and companies were producing them to some sort of government standard (as with tobacco and alcohol), I'd be willing to bet the government would try to set a standard that would be much less likely to kill someone then the crap you can currently find on the street.

Good point, skew my numbers above to: ... less than 400 will eventually die from an OD, car crash or whatever.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by lukster
We already have a legal mind altering drug, alcohol. If we legalize, regulate, and mass produce the current illegal drugs how long do you think it will be before someone comes up with an even riskier drug? If that isn't also legalized we'll be right back where we started.

Are you kidding? Opiates/marijuana have been in use for centuries. The real drug trade (and thus, creation of new 'hard' drugs) started when opiates began to be outlawed in western countries.

[lukster]

Originally posted by wetrat
Are you kidding? Opiates/marijuana have been in use for centuries. The real drug trade (and thus, creation of new 'hard' drugs) started when opiates began to be outlawed in western countries.

Am I kidding about new drugs being created that may create a grearter sense of euphoria, are more addicitive, and riskier? Nope, not kidding. I think it is pretty much a certainty as the market grows and the risk to the creator/distributor diminishes. The more highly addicitive a drug the better for the producer.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by lukster
Am I kidding about new drugs being created that may create a grearter sense of euphoria, are more addicitive, and riskier? Nope, not kidding. I think it is pretty much a certainty as the market grows and the risk to the creator/distributor diminishes. The more highly addicitive a drug the better for the producer.

I'm getting the sense that you've never been heavily in to drugs, and are speaking hypothetically (not the word I'm looking for, but close enough), and not from experience. I was addicted to cocaine. As such, I wanted COCAINE. It never even crossed my mind to up the ante to heroine or something more addictive, simply because it gives a more 'euphoric' experience. I wanted coke. That was my addiction.

A person that's addicted to one drug isn't going to magically move on to another new drug that comes along. They're going to ride their addiction until they either get clean, go to jail, or die. Simple as that. And it is VERY rare that someone dives straight in to the hardest stuff they can find, even if it does become legal. It isn't hard to get now, and the odds of getting caught aren't very high.

[lukster]

Originally posted by wetrat
I'm getting the sense that you've never been heavily in to drugs, and are speaking hypothetically (not the word I'm looking for, but close enough), and not from experience. I was addicted to cocaine. As such, I wanted COCAINE. It never even crossed my mind to up the ante to heroine or something more addictive, simply because it gives a more 'euphoric' experience. I wanted coke. That was my addiction.

A person that's addicted to one drug isn't going to magically move on to another new drug that comes along. They're going to ride their addiction until they either get clean, go to jail, or die. Simple as that. And it is VERY rare that someone dives straight in to the hardest stuff they can find, even if it does become legal. It isn't hard to get now, and the odds of getting caught aren't very high.

And yet new drugs do in fact come along and addict both new generations and old.

Don't get me wrong. I think we've lost our "war on drugs" which now only sustains a certain criminal class. However, I think it's foolish to enter this proposed new era without considering all of the possibilities.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by wetrat
OK, as a former smoker/dealer/grower (I live in Canada; cops leave small-time guys alone in suburbia), I take issue with this statement. During highschool, I smoked more pot in a year than most 'regular' smokers do in a lifetime. At no point was I ever addicted to marijuana. The day before and day of a big hockey game? Didn't smoke, no problem. Exams coming up? Stopped smoking for a few weeks, no problem. Hockey team's playoffs coming up? Quit smoking for a month or so, no problem.

As a former (?) drug addict I think you're in the worst position to 'take issue with this statement'.

Is marijuana addictive?
No one would argue that marijuana is as addictive as alcohol or cocaine. However, it's wrong to say that it is not at all addictive. More and more studies are finding that marijuana has addictive properties. Both animal and human studies show physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms from marijuana, including irritability, restlessness, insomnia, nausea and intense dreams. Tolerance to marijuana also builds up rapidly. Heavy users need 8 times higher doses to get the same effects as infrequent users.

For a small percentage of people who use it, marijuana can be highly addictive. It is estimated that 10% to 14% of users will become heavily dependent. More than 120,000 people in the US seek treatment for marijuana addiction every year. Because the consequences of marijuana use can be subtle and insidious, it is more difficult to recognize signs of addiction. Cultural and societal beliefs that marijuana cannot be addictive make it less likely for people to seek help or to get support for quitting.

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/atod/marijuana.htm

You sound like the guy watching kiddie porn... "I didn't film it, I can quit anytime I want, it doesn't mean I touch kids or ever will".

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Mini D
Why do you think that your car getting broken into would be avoided if drugs were legal? Would legalizing drugs make an addict more likely to get a job?

No, but making drugs more accessabile might increase the rate of associated crimes.

[Mini D]

I notice lazs didn't bother replying to that. Maybe something about a "drugs being the price of a six pack".

I love the assumption that the reason a window was smashed out was because of drugs... and not something legal like alcohol. Or that it was even just a highschool kid wanting some pocket change.

The war on drugs did not cause your car to get broken into lazs.

[Delirium]

During Prohibition, 'gangsters' were idolized and made into folk myth... kids played 'Capone and Ness' in their yards for years to come, and alcohol was the prime motivator for any mobsters empire during the Prohibition years.

I see the drug war of today very similar... we have an illegal substance, we have 'gangsters', we have the criminals being made into folk heros (Rap music), kids emulating their 'heros', and we still trying to fight a modern Prohibition.

It doesn't work and it won't work... the law will never win this fight as it lost it in the past.