Author Topic: 767 goes down in Queens, New York  (Read 1900 times)

Offline Udie

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2001, 10:24:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
Geese. Uncontained catastrophic engine failure. Shredded wing tanks, possible loss of hydralic controls. Fuel leaks. Eventual explosion of fuel takes wing off.. spin air stresses takes off tail and last engine.

The 15-25 pound Canada geese are ALL over this area at this time of year.. I've seen huge numbers of 'em on the dune areas down by the beaches, they especially like the grass verges on the edges of the runways on ALL the airports around here.

My guess... accident. Not terrorisim, not sabatoge. But it's just a guess. All those souls lost... damn.   :(


 I saw a report last night that they found both engines and that they were "fairly" intact.  They said they had found no evidence of a bird strike or catastrophic engine failure.   I'm no expert, but from what I've heard from eye witness reports the thing sounds like it exploded in mid air to me at least part of it.  We'll probobly never know for sure, I wouldn't put it past the government to say it wasn't terror related even if they knew 100% that it was.

 Lot of dead people too  :(


U

Offline Apache

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2001, 10:39:00 AM »
Alot of speculation out there. Just to add the report I heard lastnight.

Another theory is that the vertical stabilizer came off first. The spin stress sheered the engines, causing a rupture in the wing tanks, thus inducing an explosion from the fuel.

To quote someone yesterday but can't remember who, "You know our times have changed when you hope the death of 255 people was an accident".

Sad  :(

Offline Ripsnort

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2001, 10:47:00 AM »
Well, not dissing Airbus here, but my brother in law, whos currently a mechanic at AA, and is a certified FAA AP inspector (but not currently doing that line of work) told me in 1995 when Boeing was having some problems with its aircraft...he said this:

"If you think Boeing has problems with their airframes, just wait til these Airbuses have a few thousand cycles on them, they "use alot of glue" instead of rivets..."  now, he did not mean glue glue, he meant the manufacturing process was one that left air worthiness a big question mark after thousands of cycles.  Granted this is his opinion, but it was an ominous one.

Offline Ripsnort

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2001, 10:50:00 AM »
Speaking of which, Indian, do you know a Chuck Sydlo at AA? I know its a big company, but he works in KC, was a TWA employee, now AA. Anyway, he's family.

Offline Eagler

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
thats what has me puzzled.. why did the vertical stabilizer, with it the rudder, just fall off first? Within minutes of take off, almost like it was loose before they started their takeoff roll. Then maybe as the plane stresses yawing back and forth the engines then fall away, maybe...

heard same report, engines do not look like a bird strike.  Wierd.

What pissed me off was the humor and laughter at the NTSB press conference yesterday afternoon by both the NTSB officials and reporters.
 Very poor taste...
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Offline Dinger

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2001, 02:50:00 PM »
Who knows?  I still don't see terrorist involvement as likely.
Both engines fell within 100 feet of each other, suggesting that they broke off after the plane was out of control.
It's weird and scary.
Wake Vortices have caused airliners to crash,  but structural failure?
don't go looking for a conspiracy here.  Oh, and mora, the TWA 800 shootdown conspiracy is pretty weak.  If you want to see what a real conspiracy looks like, do a web search on "Itavia" and "Ustica".
Or hell, Valujet and arcing.  The net is full of good conspiracy theories involving plane crashes.
Why do people do it? You got me.

Offline Ripsnort

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2001, 03:11:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Apache:


To quote someone yesterday but can't remember who, "You know our times have changed when you hope the death of 255 people was an accident".

Sad   :(

You can say that again brother.  :(

Offline Hangtime

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2001, 03:37:00 PM »
"Wake Turbulance" ??

WTF?

Eyewitness accounts all seem to agree... it was on fire... fire comming from the engine.

So; what scenario would take the tail off FIRST, then light this thing on fire? "Wake Turbulance??"

What about the trail of fuel across Jamaica Bay?

Damn; makes no sense at all.
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Offline Toad

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2001, 08:15:00 PM »
Wait on the Flight Data recorder report. The new ones show a LOT of parameters. They'll know much more after that is reviewed.
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Offline hazed-

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2001, 06:34:00 PM »
This is spooky,
my brother said he was on the flight out of JFK that flew a minute or so before the fated plane.Someone on board actually commented that there was a big fire behind them as they banked away on the circuit they flew!
Now i hear on the news that all aircraft were supposed to be at least 2 minutes apart.

strange that my brother mentioned the fact they flew 1 minute before this plane and now they are saying that could be the cause!

frightening or what?

Offline Toad

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2001, 07:08:00 PM »
Hazed, it's two minutes behind a "heavy jet". (The 757 is considered a "heavy" jet due to it's wake characteristics even though it is not in the "heavy" category as determined by weight.)

It's only one minute behind other "large" (727) or "small" aircraft.

Here's a good article on Wake Turbulence:

Aircraft Wake Turbulence
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Offline Eagler

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
"Wake Turbulance" ??

WTF?

Eyewitness accounts all seem to agree... it was on fire... fire comming from the engine.

So; what scenario would take the tail off FIRST, then light this thing on fire? "Wake Turbulance??"

What about the trail of fuel across Jamaica Bay?

Damn; makes no sense at all.

sumpin fishy ...

FBI Sitting on Flight 587 Videotape

A videotape that could show exactly what happened to American Airlines Flight 587, which crashed three minutes after taking off from New York's JFK airport on Monday, is in the hands of the FBI - but the bureau has thus far declined to release it.

New York City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority spokesman Tom Kelly confirmed to the Daily News Friday that the agency has given surveillance videotapes from Cross Bay Blvd. and Marine Parkway bridges to the FBI.

"One tape captures the plane taking off from JFK," the News said.

Cross Bay Blvd. and Marine Parkway traverse Jamaica Bay, where the plane's vertical stabilizer was discovered intact after the crash.

Dozens of eyewitnesses have told media outlets they saw an explosion and/or a fire at the juncture of Flight 587's wing and fuselage moments before it began to break up, losing its tail first, then both its engines.

Catastrophic engine failure, which was first suspected to have caused the explosion, was ruled out Tuesday after NTSB investigators examined the engines and found no evidence of mechanical failure.

Since discovering the engines were working properly, NTSB spokeswoman Marion Blakely - along with most media outlets - have quietly dropped references to witness accounts of a midair explosion.

The NTSB now says that wind turbulence from another plane is the most likely cause of the crash. One former jumbo jet veteran pilot was highly skeptical of the turbulence theory.

"If wind turbulence caused that accident, I'll never fly again," Barry Schiff, who flew 747s for TWA, told the New York Post.

But a videotape showing the exact sequence of Flight 587's breakup could clear up any mystery, showing whether or not the breakup was caused by an explosion or by turbulence.

It's not clear why the FBI has not yet released the MTA video - or even commented on what it shows. It's also not clear why the Flight 587 video was not turned over to the NTSB instead of the FBI, which had reportedly adopted a secondary role in the wake of NTSB claims that the crash was an accident.

When an Air France Concorde jetliner crashed after catching fire on takeoff from a rural French airport last year, an amatuer video of the accident was released within 48 hours.

Calls to the FBI's New York office and to MTA spokesman Kelly were not returned by press time.
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Offline Hangtime

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2001, 02:38:00 PM »
I'm not at all satisfied with the way the investigation is going... I smell not fish... but rat.

Terrorist Rat.

Waaaaay to many people heard an EXPLOSION, which is WHY so many people looked up, and THEN saw a burning aircraft spinning in.

This bird was not 5 miles high and 8 miles off shore like Flight 800 was. This thing was at less than 3000 feet up, and close enuff to see panel lines and aircraft markings clearly from the ground.

I dunno... I have this niggling feeling that we ain't gettin the straight poop on this one.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
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Offline AKSWulfe

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2001, 02:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
I dunno... I have this niggling feeling that we ain't gettin the straight poop on this one.

Most likely not, imagine a public that witnessed a tragedy occur not once, but twice spanned by 2 months and 1 day with supposed "beefed up" security.

I'd imagine the airline industry would be flushed right down the toilet if it came out.

Besides, aircraft engines have a built-in emergency system that forces them to jettison if a fire or explosion is detected inside them. They don't just fall off because the tail fell off.
-SW

Offline Hangtime

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767 goes down in Queens, New York
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2001, 02:50:00 PM »
The bit about the 'damaged' FDR having to go back to the 'manufacturer' for 'repair' prior to its being 'read' by the NTSB stinks too.

Yah.. I know; I'm over-reacting and lookin for trouble where no trouble is... right?

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.