martial arts

[john9001]

Originally posted by dmf
Pick up my beer for a bar fight and your getting a spiked heal in the back of your head.

   i could use someone like you to cover my back.

[dmf]

Originally posted by john9001
   i could use someone like you to cover my back.

Why, somebody after you?

You know that we women usually sit back and watch you guys beat each other like dogs over the girl that neither of you are going home with

[FT_Animal]

Originally posted by JB88
been thinking about practicing a martial art.  the most appealing to my sensibilities so far has been aikido.  my interest in this form stems from my desire to learn a purely defensive art.  i have no desire to learn how to hurt others for fun and profit.

i am reading a book right now called Aikido and the dynamic sphere.  very well written and it is quite informative.   of course, i know that i will not really learn to practice it with a book, but feel that i may come to know its essence.

unfortunately i have not found anywhere in  my area that teaches it, so i cannot be sure.


i know a man nearby who teaches chin-na, (a chinese form which uses control or locking to subdue opponents) he is well respected in the area and is associated with some even more respected teachers in the area.  

an aquaintance of mine has invited me to join him at a class and i may try it.

(my only real concern on that level is that the chin-na instructor once had a thing for my girlfriend and he got shot down.  i fear this may realize itself in the business end of a lock/break.  eek.)


anywho.  i am curious about the differences between forms and practices (particularly between aikido and chin-na, but certainly not limited to then.

i am also wondering if any of you have any specific knowledge of martial arts that you might wish to share or suggestions about which might go well with my philosophy.

IMO, Best bet, take a class from someone in the military or police. A LOT of USA martial arts classes aren't much more then cool dance rutines, far from the real thing. Do it in class and doing it in RL are two completely different worlds. If you want to protect yourself, gear up to hurt someone, intensly. IMO Survival means the other guy doesn't get up.

[lazs2]

nelson.. in real life the jujitsu guy or boxer will go down and if he is against a strong opponent he will probly end up losing the wrestling match on the floor... if he is bigger and stronger and more agressive... he will win... if the other guy doesn't get help or find a weapon.

I was in a lot of barroom fights.... I wouldn't say that my boxing experiance helped all that much.

The way I won most barroom fights was that I was the first guy in the fight to realize that there was gonna be a fight.  

I do think that losing a few makes you very determined to win.  Some experiance in some form of fighting skill may help you to realize that second place is a very dangerous place.

lazs

[Nilsen]

That is more or less what im saying.

The first guy who gets in the first good "hit" usually wins, and if that person has some training then its more than likley that it will be over in seconds. The first guy who gets to punch first is also the same guy that first realises that its going to be a fight.

I have only been in about five fights myself as i tend to walk away or calm the situation down rather than fight. In all of those five fights I have seen that the **** is about to hit the fan and taken action sooner than the other guys. The funny part about that is that I have only once in those five times had any use for the defencive moves that my martial art focuses mostly on. I have never had to kick anyone for that matter either.

[lazs2]

I guess we are agreeing.. it is not martial arts that makes you react so much as it is street smarts.   I was a boxer but a roundhouse punch form a farmer is harder than my best.  Many people could punch harder than me.

If I don't see it then it is over.... if I am grabbed or knocked down it becomes a wrestling match.

I can think of only a few standup fights where boxing helped.   even then.. I was grabbed.   I have kicked guys who trained to kick... they didn't kick me cause they were on the floor and dazed... they were still moving tho.

bigger and stronger counts for a lot.... aggressive counts for even more.  skill.... very little in most cases.  least the ones I have seen.

I did see one seal take out three guys in a short time once but... I wasn't one of em and they were drunk and none of em seen it coming.

lazs

[Nilsen]

The thing i think martial arts gives you in a fight like that is speed, power and reflexes. If you do some sparring then you can also take a hit better than some others but if you are hit in a good place then that wont matter.

If you dont see it coming, if you are drunk/reduced reflexes, caught off-guard or is afraid then none of the benefits of knowing martial arts helps you any at all. You will be on the floor with your black belt and look like an idiot.

[lazs2]

It is very easy to get hit no matter how good your reflexes in a street fight situation.

no training on earth will prepare you for the determination of some of the people you will run into.

you may have some increased chance if you are a student of a fighting art but it is small compared to all the things that make up street combat.

in my opinion and experiance that is.

lazs

[lukster]

It's pretty easy to turn most fights into a wrestling match. Like the guy did in the video, duck your head and charge. I've seen more than a few fist fights devolve this way.

[Angus]

"you may have some increased chance if you are a student of a fighting art "

I'd say "will" instead of "may" here.

A friend of mine is a blackbelter BTW. He dabbled with boxing and after only 3 months of training he was in the country league. KO'ed anyone he came near to!
I think he might have done that to the guy in the video as well

[storch]

lazs how hard is it punch from your wheelchair?

you have a valid point though once the fighting commences I don't care who you are you're going to get hit.  it really boils down to physical conditioning and size.  I rather fight a 5'-1" tenth degree than a 7'-1" anybody, even though a knee breaks just as easily for anyone.

if the shotokan practioner would have remembered to utilize tai sabaki the gutter fighter may have had to perform an additional charge or two.  having said that I have found myself in plenty of wrestling matches only to afterwards say I should have done this and such.

the point is valid as well though, if a guy wants to grapple with you, you're gonna grapple.

here's the thing though the older we become the more likely we become willing to just apply between 3-4lbs with an index finger and allow the attorneys to sort out the details later.

[lazs2]

seen lots of fights... there is no magic art that will save you.

Be quick and strong and bigger and faster and more willing to be a sociopath in the fight and you will beat the best martial artist in the world who isn't these things.

I once had a woman karate expert admit to a group of women that fighting me would result in her being maimed.   They were crushed... they somehow believed that a few tricks could turn a 100 lb woman into a formidable adversary for a 180 lb ex boxer biker with a mean streak.

She had shown em a hold that bent back the fingers or some such... they asked her why she didn't just do that to me... she was right in explaining that even if she could get in that position that it was likely that I would allow her to break my fingers and still beat her to death.

This is correct in my opinion... I have fought with broken hands many times... ditto for nose and even once with a cracked rib for a short time (not recomended).

I am not particularly tough compared to the people I was around in those days.   Certainly tho.... I was miles ahead of some robe wearing class attender who had never had to have a buddy set his fingers after a fight or some ex vietnam medic set his nose after one.

I'm not kidding... there are people out there who are a hell of a lot tougher and meaner than that and...  they enjoy hurting people.  

If you are smart you will do as nelson says and try to get out of the whole thing.

storch jokes about wheelchairs but the only wheelchair I ever want to be in is the one that they make you use when checking out of a hospital.

Fights are a lot more fun to talk about later than to be in unless you are one sick mother.   I hope the last one I was in was the last one I will ever be in.   Maybe I am getting old after all but....I have no interest in playing at fighting these days.

lazs

[Angus]

"Be quick and strong and bigger and faster and more willing to be a sociopath in the fight and you will beat the best martial artist in the world who isn't these things.

I once had a woman karate expert admit to a group of women that fighting me would result in her being maimed. They were crushed... they somehow believed that a few tricks could turn a 100 lb woman into a formidable adversary for a 180 lb ex boxer biker with a mean streak."

You must mean a lot bigger, and the martial arts person is usually...faster, - don't mix faster with first.

As for the weight difference, 100 lbs woman is on the verge of starving, while a 180 lbs man, all due respect, is not a big bull. (I'm somewhat slim, and yet 190). The difference in size is more normally like.....130 to 180.
Well, anyway, guys are normally much stronger, so this is another issue, - but a guy vs a woman is normally something of nuts, mugging, rape attempt, or home violence. In all cases, some studies of martial arts cannot be anything but good for the woman.
Now the finger trick might work on somebody not too serious, but you must know that there are many more meaner things to do. Even a woman of 100 lbs may be able to stun a 200 lbs guy and get away. Even stun you and grab your gun

[Tac]

I agree with lazs in many points above.

You can be a master in whatever discipline you choose... when it comes down to it you either are the bigger person (weight/muscle ratio) or the better armed one or the one with the better luck (aka 'surprise' factor).

A tazer or pistol and good common sense is much better than being a black belt ninja nowaday.

Remember: Indiana Jones shot the guy with the scimitar the first time ... and the 2nd time around he RAN away from him.

[lazs2]

well... I guess that no matter what I say or no matter what you see in real life you will cling to the notion that wearing the robe for a few years will make you bulletproof or somehow give you an advantage.

they won't make you faster than the speed freak or tougher than the drunk biker or more able to take punishment than the hopped up bull rider.

No matter what the guy in the clean little "dojo" tells you or the tricks he shows you in the sterile atmosphere of said dojo... it is like going to the carnivale and watching a guy weld up an aluminum picture frame with his bic lighter and a magic welding rod.

there are no magic beans in this case... experiance isn't gotten in a gym dressed in glorified pajamas one night a week.   It sure as hell won't hurt and it might give you some tips to help but you will probly be a deer in the headlights when the real situation comes with muscles that the ice water has made girly weak....  

If you end up in a wresling match then everything you learned will be out the window.   Bigger guys... tougher guys.. two or more guys... it's all bad news.   Guys who know that you are in a fight before you do...  

Often, the philosophy of defense is a hindrance in the real world...  You want to figure out how to get away first and how to stop the other guy/guys from moving as a last resort.   A kick is for when you have knocked em down and they are still moving.

If you can catch a ball thrown to you then you are plenty fast.  How you use it is all up to you and in your own head.   You don't get faster by years of martial arts... you get slower because you are years older.

They, the bad guys won't let you change into your pajamas and they have no idea of who you are except that they are gonna hurt you.  

You learn what parts of the human body are tender by being a human for a while.   You learn what parts you may be able to get at by experiance.... experiance lets you find what works while you are working.

One of my friends was a seal and I was surprised that he pretty much thought the same as I did.  I never talked to many other seals but that is what this guy believed.   I seen him fight once... he won... it was about like watching those ultimate fights on tv or any good bar fight.  He was not a big guy and managed to win with about a 30 lb handicap but... he was in one hell of a lot better shape.   Like the ultimate fights.. he fought and struck with closed fist in what I recognized as a loose boxing style.  

lazs