Next time you meet a wealthy person, thank them...

[lazs2]

laser... should you pay the soldiers and the courts who defend you even if you are an anarchist?   If you refuse to pay should the money be taken from you or the services with held from you?   Someone would have to administer this.. the government.. it would have to follow rules like a constitution and a bill of rights and it would have to be paid for.    How could you justify it defending your human rights without helping to pay for it?

After that.. it get's fuzzy.   How much is too much?   Taking from one person to give to another even tho no service is rendered is what I would define as socialism.

lazs

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by FastFwd
I've never been to Norway, but it seems like they're pretty well off. Waiting from someone from there to comment on this.

Ive tried to in many threads but its pretty useless as those commenting against our "socialism" ususally have _no clue_ as to what they are talking about nor do they have any experience at all with the way it works here...


I love it here and I'll leave it at that

[lazs2]

and yet.... I have never felt the urge to post on a norweigen bb or play an online game from norway.

lazs

[Nilsen]

who cares?

[lazs2]

exactly.

lazs

[lasersailor184]

agreed, but I'm not one of those. I do not want any one's property, and I'd like to keep mine, thank you very much.

But you condone the act of it.  Either all of it is right to do, or none of it.  Decide now.

should you pay the soldiers and the courts who defend you even if you are an anarchist?

I don't think we should have soldiers in the way we do now.  And the courts don't defend me.

How could you justify it defending your human rights without helping to pay for it?

All governments have already proved that they are incapable of defending any civil right.  Should I pay them still?


If you believe in it so much, donate money to it.  I might as well, in time, once they prove they are actually competent.  

Just never demand that I should rightfully have my property stolen from me.  That is socialism Lazs.

[lazs2]

sorry laser.. don't buy it.   under your defenition any government that was supported in any way by the people would be socialism... the only form you would want would be anarchy or... no government.

What could work is that in my government you would be assesed for your share of the support of the government... the courts and the defense.   If you declined then a list would be made of all the people who were fair game and not defended under the court system.   it would be in the paper and anything done to you would be of no concern of the government.

Is that not socialist enough for you?   If you want to drive on the roads you simply pay the road tax in the form of fuel taxes.

While you would have no protection of the courts... the people who did pay would be able to use the courts to take everything you owned.  

This I suppose would be fair and a good way for you to not participate in protection of your rights under the law.

As for... "decide now"   how dramatic of you...  You do not need to decide government in such a cut and dry either or way... you can have gaurantees and reasonable fees for such services.   This is not socialism in my opinion.

you don't feel that we need an army as we have now...  probly not but....you must admit that we need some type of army and we need an even larger one if we do have to go to war.    How exactly do you propose we pay for it?

You say the courts and the government don't protect your human rights?   are you kidding?   surely they could do a better job but perhaps you think the areas of tribal africa are more of a paradise?   that roving bands of thugs are not something you need to worry about?    That courts never dispense justice in the U.S. and no courts would be better.

Or perhaps.... you simply have never really thought it out?

lazs

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by lazs2
sorry laser.. don't buy it.   under your defenition any government that was supported in any way by the people would be socialism... the only form you would want would be anarchy or... no government.

No, I have no problem with governments, I have problems with people stealing my property.  If you feel it is necessary to support the government, you will be free to give them any or all of your monthly paycheck.  If they start cleaning up their acts and doing things they should be doing, then I'll donate some of my money to operate.  But I'd rather take a column up my bellybutton then be forced to pay at gunpoint.

As a matter of fact, since you seem to support this goverment so much, how much of your paycheck do you donate every February 14th?

What could work is that in my government you would be assesed for your share of the support of the government... the courts and the defense.   If you declined then a list would be made of all the people who were fair game and not defended under the court system.   it would be in the paper and anything done to you would be of no concern of the government.

Fine for me.  I'm fully confident in my accuracy up to and including 600 yards.

Is that not socialist enough for you?   If you want to drive on the roads you simply pay the road tax in the form of fuel taxes.

If the government owned the gasoline, then they could charge whatever they want for fuel taxes.  I simply make the choice whether or not I want to pay it.  I can choose to not drive my car by not buying gas...  But you'd rather a marauding band came into my house in the middle of the night, and made me fill up my car at gun point.

But as it stands, the government doesn't own the gas.  They have no right to put a sales tax on it for any use.  The gas station corporations could donate if they would like...

But, the government does own the roads.  They can put up poll booths to charge access and use of the roads.  I then have the choice to drive on the roads and pay the toll, or not.

While you would have no protection of the courts... the people who did pay would be able to use the courts to take everything you owned.

Again, that's if I put stock into the power of the Courts.  The people are more then welcome to come take my stuff, if they think they can outshoot me.  I'm betting they can't, but you're betting that they can.

Does it work the other way though?  If I kill a looter who wanted to take my property and life, do I get to take his property once he's dead?  

This I suppose would be fair and a good way for you to not participate in protection of your rights under the law.

As for... "decide now"   how dramatic of you...  You do not need to decide government in such a cut and dry either or way... you can have gaurantees and reasonable fees for such services.   This is not socialism in my opinion.

It is dramatic because the issue is dramatic.  It's not a shades of gray issue.

If you believe it is right to take someone else's money without their choice, then you are a socialist.  There is no arguing around this!

you don't feel that we need an army as we have now...  probly not but....you must admit that we need some type of army and we need an even larger one if we do have to go to war.    How exactly do you propose we pay for it?

See: Switzerland

You say the courts and the government don't protect your human rights?   are you kidding?   surely they could do a better job but perhaps you think the areas of tribal africa are more of a paradise?   that roving bands of thugs are not something you need to worry about?    That courts never dispense justice in the U.S. and no courts would be better.

The courts have no power to stop roving bands of thugs.  If you really think they do you need to return to grad school and study again.  The courts only have power to give out decisions after the fact.  If a roving band of numbnuts comes into my house and kills me, the court can't decide that I can have my life back.  And they can't protect me from this.  Only I can.

Or perhaps.... you simply have never really thought it out?

lazs

I could say the same thing about you.

[FastFwd]

Originally posted by mietla
Sailor,

You are just being silly, very vocal, but silly. There is no question about the necessity of the government and the necessity to fund it.
.
.
.
.
You can take your position anywhere between those two view points, but I don't think you'll find many supporters of your view that anarchy is better option.

I think laser is a young man who wants to look cool by flashing his anti-Socialist credentials. Young men often go way into the overkill zone with that kind of thing.

[lazs2]

yep.. he isn't hearing a thing I say.   Of course a court system that he was not involved in could take everything he had... and... they people would back it.

If he did harm to another, economic or real, and he did not help to support the courts that handled these matters (did not pay the fee or tax) then the whole of the people and the courts they paid for would do their job.

No.. the government does not own the gasoline but they own the roads... to pay for the roads they are entitled to add a fee to the gasoline so long as they use it only for work on the roads.   The people should be able to vote on what type and how much they are willing to pay for said roads by this fee... those who do not drive are not affected.

Fuel can be tinted for off road use also... it is now.   red diesel... if you don't want to use the roads laser... buy the untaxed red fuel.   if you get caught on our roads (stealing from us and freeloading) you will be fined or jailed...  You may hire a lawyer of your choice to plead your case (if we even inform you of the court date since you are not paying that tax either).

my guess is that you don't pay income taxes because...well...you live off of others but... you pay sales and gas and a lot of others and you smile while you do it.

I pay income taxes because I earn a living.  I am not happy about it.

My whole being is about less government involvement than we have now.   It is not about having lawlessness or anarchy.   I don't think roving gangs of thugs with no law are going to protect my human rights better than a constitutional republic with a strong human rights bill of rights.

the above government is preferable to any I have seen including any bizzaro world anarchy one you can come up with where rights are upheld by whoever can raise the biggest local army.

We have gone far beyond the original intent of our government tho in my opinion (and any real constitutional scholar).

lazs

[lasersailor184]

to pay for the roads they are entitled to add a fee to the gasoline so long as they use it only for work on the roads.

You have not been reading since my very first post.  I'll say it once more.


The government is not entitled to add a fee on something that is not theirs.




I have lost.  Even the most ardent proponent of libertarianism is a socialist.  I can't convince him that he's wrong.  I concede.

[lazs2]

you are not lost... just wrong.   You are not a libertarian you are an anarchist.

You don't feel the government (or anyone) has a right to charge a fee for their services.   Some group or another needs to build and repair infrastructure such as roads...  I would say that everyone (including the government) be allowed to bid on the work.   the money for the roads should be raised by a gas fee/tax rather than a road toll/tax in my opinion... the tolls are a pain the gas fee is seamless and less painful.

right or wrong... .like it or not.. the highway structure was originaly built by the government.   can't change that now.. we can only take care of and expand what they have build.. we need money to do that.  I say let a tax on gas pay for it and let everyone bid on it.

A good example is my job.  I run the wastewater and collection facility for the city I am in.   I am a city employee.  Paid for by the people who are hooked to the system by a monthly fee/tax.   This fee/tax can only be spent on the wastewater treatment.    All items, all expenses and budget items are tracked and come out of this fund (enterprise fund seperate from general fund)

 Any private company is allowed to present their proposal (bid) for running the facility... many cities have private companies run their facilities.   The nature of my facility and collections makes it undesirable/unprofitable for private companies to run cheaper than I can (so far).   So in this case.. the people are getting exactly what they pay for and the best deal possible.

lazs

[lasersailor184]

I could pick that apart paragraph by paragraph.  But it would be of no use.

Just go with these parting words:

You are  socialist.  Have fun stealing other people's money.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
You have not been reading since my very first post.  I'll say it once more.


The government is not entitled to add a fee on something that is not theirs.




I have lost.  Even the most ardent proponent of libertarianism is a socialist.  I can't convince him that he's wrong.  I concede.

You've now called everyone here a socialist. Perhaps it would benefit you to take step back from all this and get some perspective on that matter.

Something is not immoral if, in a situation where a choice must be made, there are no superior alternatives available. You've copied definitions of crimes out of the dictionary, now go back and look up the phrase 'choice of evils'. The gist is simple:  All things being equal, it the choice which creates the least negative effect that is the moral one. Now, weigh the two alternatives--being taxed against your will, or living in anarchy. Anarcy has far greater and father-reaching negative effects than taxation--however involuntary participation in the tax system may seem.

You've kicked and screamed, claiming that taxes are immoral, and yet you've not once demonstrated that an alternative even exists, to say nothing about whether it is a practical one. You've not given one example of where a system that you would approve of has been successfully implemented amongst a significant group of people.

Until you prove that absolutely no taxes are required to maintain and improve our current quality of life, and that this method is within the reach of modern humanity to efficiently implement and maintain, your argument will fail...

[Shamus]

lasersailor,

Have you told your folks yet that they are wasting the money that they are spending on your education?

Are they aware that when you get your degree you will be declining work on any public buildings or projects by corporations that derive any income from a public source?

shamus