Author Topic: plane on a conveyor belt?  (Read 19870 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2007, 01:44:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
sweet thread!

It makes me wonder why a plane taking off against the rotation of the earth wouldn't have a tougher time than a plane taking off with the rotation of the earth. I'm sure airspeed has nothing to do with it.


Launching payloads into orbit takes the rotation of the earth into consideration.  Thats why all but a few payloads are launched east.  They get a 800 mph boost to get to 17,000 mph
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Offline Kurt

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2007, 01:51:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Launching payloads into orbit takes the rotation of the earth into consideration.  Thats why all but a few payloads are launched east.  They get a 800 mph boost to get to 17,000 mph


And those payloads not launched east are typically going into polar orbit where east/west doesn't give you any boost at all...

But more importantly, who cares?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2007, 01:55:13 AM »
Several thousaand people living in Coco Beach, Fr. Giuana, Kazakhstan, and a few other places.
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Offline Kurt

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2007, 02:00:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Several thousaand people living in Coco Beach, Fr. Giuana, Kazakhstan, and a few other places.


Ok, maybe you could email them directly instead of posting it here?::rolleyes:
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Offline Holden McGroin

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2007, 02:02:50 AM »
Then I would not annoy you and where is the fun in that?

I mean you seem to have a great deal invested in your not caring....  and I certainly do not want to disappoint.
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Offline Wes14

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2007, 02:07:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Launching payloads into orbit takes the rotation of the earth into consideration.  Thats why all but a few payloads are launched east.  They get a 800 mph boost to get to 17,000 mph


too bad we cant get a 800mph boost in these AH planes by launching them anyway but east:rolleyes:
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Offline Kurt

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #126 on: January 21, 2007, 02:07:17 AM »
It takes a lot of energy to not care as much as I don't.

Lucky for you, right now, I've got nothing else to spend that energy on.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #127 on: January 21, 2007, 03:21:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt
Lucky for you, right now, I've got nothing else to spend that energy on.


Better grammer would be to say, "nothing else on which to spend that energy."
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Offline JB88

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #128 on: January 21, 2007, 05:12:31 AM »
better spellers might write it as grammar.
;)
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Offline Holden McGroin

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #129 on: January 21, 2007, 05:19:39 AM »
Grammer is the olde English spelling, pre-Stratford on Avon.
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Offline JB88

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #130 on: January 21, 2007, 06:01:12 AM »
;)  

mriiiiggggghhhhhht.
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Offline Dinger

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #131 on: January 21, 2007, 06:53:30 AM »
The question is confused:
Quote
A plane is standing on a runway that can move like a giant conveyor belt. The plane applies full forward power and attempts to take off. This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's wheel speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same but in the opposite direction, similar to a treadmill.


This can mean:

A. Wheels are rotating clockwise; conveyer is rotating opposite direction (counter-clockwise),
or
B. Wheels and Conveyer are rotating clockwise, and surface of conveyer is moving in direction opposite to that of the contact point of the wheels -- the conveyer is moving in the direction of the aircraft.


The question invites us to suppose a condition that does not exist. Hence, we have to put aside objections of impossibility, and make it work. But the conveyer belt is the only thing we are allowed to consider in a contrary-to-fact and -physical law situation.

Yet we can assume that a "control system" would have some sort of frequency between sensor and adjustment, as all mechanical control systems have. It would have to be reasonably fast, but it would be there.

If you deny me a frequency, then yeah, in A it solves to infinity, and the question doesn't make sense. In B, at the first instant of change, the beginning of the motion, the motion is sensed, and corrected for, and you will have a perfectly motionless set of wheels attached to an aircraft that accelerates down the runway and takes off: that motion is increasing in velocity, but always compensated for. In this case, B creates all kinds of interesting philosophical discussions of the instant of change, incipit/desinit, and motion in general, the kinda crap Aristotle threw into his physics, but not stuff that affects our problem.

So, we have to have some sort of frequency in the control system. The "Exactly" means "Exactly" the same speed as the previous measurement, given the mechanical contraption's ability to accelerate to it. And we'll have to admit that that frequency is pretty high.

Okay, so now, in A, one of several situations can occur, depending on the aircraft:
1. As the wheels are not frictionless, the moment it starts moving forward, the aircraft will be moved backwards, and at an accelerating rate. It will then be dumped off the threshhold, tearing up the PAPI lights: so NO
2. The air moved along the surface of the conveyor belt will provide enough of a headwind that the jet (presumably one of them biplane models) will be able to take off: YES
3. The aircraft will start its forward roll, and the conveyor belt will spin the tires madly. As it starts moving backwards, the engines have spectacular compressor stalls. The lateral vibration, coupled with the severe shakes coming off the overspeeding tires, will induce the gear to collapse. The jet will fall onto the conveyer belt, and the fuselage will be propelled at a couple hundred miles an hour, spattering against an ILS array. Rescue comes on the scene and extricates the pilot from tangled, burning mess: NO
4. The gear stay on through the compressor stall, but as the tires hit the sound barrier, they explode, and the shockwave coming down the conveyor belt jolts the aircraft. It drops onto the conveyor belt, and is instantly shredded into tiny little pieces that are propelled backwards. Subsequent mist bars landing to all but Cat. 3B Aircraft, and wake turbulence is a *****: YES

In B, on the other hand, the wheels would turn, but slower than normal, and the aircraft would move down the runway and take off.

The mistake made in this formulation was to tie the conveyor to the wheel speed of the aircraft, and not to its ground speed.



given the natural order of the universe (aka, physics, not theology), of course.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 07:02:20 AM by Dinger »

Offline Skuzzy

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #132 on: January 21, 2007, 08:34:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Snip. This is why all theoretical faster than light drives use some sort of field to either reduce the effective mass of the ship to zero, or create some sort of bubble around the ship so that the ship is surrounded by sub-light velocity space while the bubble, which is effectively massless, moves through the rest of the universe.  Star Trek uses the second trick, creating a "sub-space" field around the ship so the ship never gets close to the speed of light.  You are postulating the first trick, where your wheels and treadmill are capable of moving at an infinite speed.  To be able to do so, they would need to have zero mass or infinite strength (or possibly a diameter of zero... hmmm)
Actually, the warp theory Star Trek uses is based on the actual bending or warping of space.  The bubble around the ship keeps the space constant so the ship will not disintegrate.  It is a tricky balancing act.

It works like a magnet does.  Take a magnet, place it on paper and drop some metal particles on it.  At each end of the poles of the magnet will be a greater density of metal particles.  And at the very center of the magnet everything is balanced.  All the fields counter each other.  Warp drive theory is based on the same principles.

If you can generate a force which bends/warps/compresses space in front of the ship, then use a normal drive syste, to push the ship through the compressed/warped area of space, and then release the space after the ship passes though the compressed area, it will have the effect of moving the ship great distances at sub-light speeds.

The warp factor used in Star Trek is an exponential amount of power used to bend/compress/warp space X amount.  By the time you reach Warp 10, it is therotically impossbile to bend space any further without causing space to collapse on itself and the ship.

One of the many fallacies of how Star Trek used the theories is what happens when a ship, traveling at Warp speeds, explodes.  The ships remains would be spread over billions of miles of space (depending on the warp factor) and not be localized at all.  The particles would indeed form a long cylindrical pattern though.

The overall impact of what happens to space which was warped then immedaitely returned to a non-warped state is unknown.  However, the final episodes of TNG attempted to address the potential issues with the constant warping and releasing of compressed space.  The probable theories are still being defined.

One of the things they did get right (and they actually got more right than they did wrong) was the visual effect of entering warped space.  The object would indeed appear to elongate until it disappeared from view in a matter of micro-seconds.
---

Uh, did my geek level just increase?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 09:05:28 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline JB88

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #133 on: January 21, 2007, 08:50:40 AM »
exponentially.

:D
this thread is doomed.
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Offline Wes14

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #134 on: January 21, 2007, 09:40:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Actually, the warp theory Star Trek uses is based on the actual bending or warping of space.  The bubble around the ship keeps the space constant so the ship will not disintegrate.  It is a tricky balancing act.

It works like a magnet does.  Take a magnet, place it on paper and drop some metal particles on it.  At each end of the poles of the magnet will be a greater density of metal particles.  And at the very center of the magnet everything is balanced.  All the fields counter each other.  Warp drive theory is based on the same principles.

If you can generate a force which bends/warps/compresses space in front of the ship, then use a normal drive syste, to push the ship through the compressed/warped area of space, and then release the space after the ship passes though the compressed area, it will have the effect of moving the ship great distances at sub-light speeds.

The warp factor used in Star Trek is an exponential amount of power used to bend/compress/warp space X amount.  By the time you reach Warp 10, it is therotically impossbile to bend space any further without causing space to collapse on itself and the ship.

One of the many fallacies of how Star Trek used the theories is what happens when a ship, traveling at Warp speeds, explodes.  The ships remains would be spread over billions of miles of space (depending on the warp factor) and not be localized at all.  The particles would indeed form a long cylindrical pattern though.

The overall impact of what happens to space which was warped then immedaitely returned to a non-warped state is unknown.  However, the final episodes of TNG attempted to address the potential issues with the constant warping and releasing of compressed space.  The probable theories are still being defined.

One of the things they did get right (and they actually got more right than they did wrong) was the visual effect of entering warped space.  The object would indeed appear to elongate until it disappeared from view in a matter of micro-seconds.
---

Uh, did my geek level just increase?


^Star Trek fan :confused:

well....atleast i think i learned something from reading this:aok
Warning! The above post may induce: nausea, confusion, headaches, explosive diarrhea, anger, vomiting, and whining. Also this post may not make any sense, or may lead to the hijack of the thread.

-Regards,
Wes14