Author Topic: When did the Cold War start? (Read 2509 times)

john9001 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:08:11 PM »

stop picking on Boroda, he has to say what he says or the KGB will take him away in the middle of the night and we will never hear from him again.

Boroda · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:08:22 PM »

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Originally posted by JB88
oh and that stalin was such a kidder.

Stalin killed Royal family? Any other historical discoveries?

68Hawk · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:09:40 PM »

Wow, so far we've gotten some really good answers, and some really good historical discussion.

My aim in starting this post was to show that some things in History that are taken as simple fact are often very debatable. So far this thread has more than shown that.

I think Boroda has a very good point, that perceptions of history are incredibly important to understand. I think its true that the Western perspective on the USSR has been slanted by some fearmongering, and that manypeople in the West who lived through the Cold War do not have an accurate picture of that country during the same period. Many Americans think the USSR was like Col. Spicket from Tailspin (was that his name?). Americans forget that MANY Russians, East Germans and others in the Communist block were happy with their situation. Many East Germans are still upset at issues they consider unresolved from unification.

Filth's answer of 1918 is also a very good one. Personally I believe the two wars are better understood as one long conflict period, and in this sense 1918, with the coming of the Russian Revolution and eventual victory of the Bolsheviks, can be considered a good beginning of animosities. Still, the USSR was not powerful enough to prove a real threat to the West till well into the second War. Some of the dates being suggested after the war are arguably valid as well.

I still stick by my Yalta conference answer, which was Feb 1945. Any other answers out there?

Boroda · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:13:26 PM »

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Originally posted by john9001
stop picking on Boroda, he has to say what he says or the KGB will take him away in the middle of the night and we will never hear from him again.

Yess. They'll torture me and kill. And then eat. And send me to Gulag to clean all the snow in Siberia.

I am posting this from a bread line typing with one hand, pushing back polar bears with the other.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:16:21 PM »

Just curious here, but how many different political parties were there in the Soviet Union, and how often did the average person go to the polls to VOTE for their ELLECTED representatives?

You said in one of your earlier posts Boroda that the people of the Soviet Union CHOOSE communism over democracy. Did they really have a choice? I don't recall ever hearing or reading about a general election in Russia where the people decided that communism was the way to go and the people voted for it.

Your right that democracy isn't all it's cracked up to be but at least the people have the RIGHT to choose who will be our representatives in government. We also have the choice to remove those representatives if a majority of the people think they are screwing up. Do you honestly think Stalin would have stepped down if the people had tried to vote him out of office?? Hell no. He would have brought the red army in to crush any opposition to HIS RULE. You were raised in a country that was run by a small commitee of dictators called the Politburo. What choice did you have? Were you able to leave the country anytime you wanted too? Were the people of the Soviet Union ALLOWED to protest in large numbers outside the gates of the Kremlin??

I grew up during the last 20 years of the cold war and I have more faith in the free press I saw and read about what was going on then I do in your programed point of view.

As far as when the cold war started I believe that the blockade of Berlin by the Soviets was the real kick off to the whole thing. At the end of WWII Berlin was under the administrative control of the United States, Britan, France, and the Soviet Union. A safe transit corridor was established so that the allies could get in and out of the city. The Soviets closed that corridor for one reason. Power. They wanted Berlin. Well the allies decided to give the Soviets the finger and started flying supplies in and did it as long as it took for the Soviets to back down. Well it worked because we never left Berlin. We also never shot and killed anyone trying to cross the wire. The Soviets can't claim that.

mars01 · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:27:49 PM »

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Very interesting point of view from the area formerly behind the iron curtain. I have a question for the comrade. If the west started the cold war and was the aggressor, then why did the Communists have to build a wall around West Berlin? Was it to keep that nasty freedom from leaking into the Lenin Utopia? Or was it to keep the oppressed Germans from escaping.
Further the demarcation line between East and West Germany was mined, fenced, and patrolled by Russian troops who on over 100 occasions shot down unarmed Germans trying to cross over to the Western side. Number of incidents of people climbing over the fence going eastward? Zero.

As to the internal workings of the Soviet Union would you care to enlighten us dumb westerners as to the use of the Gulag system and the disappearance of millions of Russians into the vast prison system? Even your current government admits the murder of millions of its own citizens under Communist rule, and yet we are the aggressor and the mean blue side?

Propaganda is a powerful tool used by both sides and I dont for a minute say that the western hands are clean of blood. But in comparison from our side to your side, the Soviet system was at a minimum barbaric, and oppressive.

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If you know arithmetic - you can easily count the victims of Western "activities" in last 200 years yourself. Let's begin with genocide of native Americans and Opium wars. If you call this "civilisation" - I prefer to stay an Asian barbarian on my shaggy mount.

Asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks my ass.

The key difference is that Russians simply wanted to survive, all the politics after 1917 was aimed at survival, while Western "civilised" countries were openly robbing and murdering other nations. So it goes. Just look, USSR never did anything that can be compared with recent activities of the "coalition of the willing"...

Sorry, I am a little upset by listening to the same crap over and over again. You guys have no imagination. Why not invent something new? Why not speak of bloody annexation of Tuva in 1944? Or Russian intervention in Manchuria in 1896-1905? Or Free Cossacks killing French troops in Abissinia in 1880s?

Wow truly fascinating. Something tells me you and your family were some of the privilege few in the old system.

I notice your response above does not address anything wt666 asks. Other than trying to point out bad things in the west's past as if that justifies the former Soviet Unions actions during the cold war. Honestly the blight on the American Indian is not a pretty part of our past, but you will be hard pressed to find anyone talking as if they deserved it as you are doing with your past. Why is that. Especially when you espouse this kind of idea:

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Once again, do you know the real reasons for blockade of Berlin? The fault is on the Western side. They simply didn't tell you the truth, it's called "freedom of speech" in the West.

Please enlighten us with a direct answer to wt666 post, I am all ears as to why the former Soviet Union needed to make the East Berlin prisoners of their own country and how that was the wests fault??

And you can't argue that East Berlin was far worse off from the the Wall and Soviet domination. It was obvious when the wall came down and Berlin was once again a totally FREE city. East Berlin was akin to a place where time stood still.

Then you want to discuss Iraq? LOL How many countries has Russia invaded and tried to hand it back to the people to run as we are doing. What do you think Japan would have been like had Russia ruled there instead of America overseeing it's reconstruction?

Ball · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:37:43 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
Mister is a trotskist?... World revolution, barrack communism, etc? Hunweibins, Cultural Revolution, other funny ultra-left stuff?

Boroda · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:38:01 PM »

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Originally posted by Hornet33
As far as when the cold war started I believe that the blockade of Berlin by the Soviets was the real kick off to the whole thing. At the end of WWII Berlin was under the administrative control of the United States, Britan, France, and the Soviet Union. A safe transit corridor was established so that the allies could get in and out of the city. The Soviets closed that corridor for one reason. Power. They wanted Berlin. Well the allies decided to give the Soviets the finger and started flying supplies in and did it as long as it took for the Soviets to back down. Well it worked because we never left Berlin. We also never shot and killed anyone trying to cross the wire. The Soviets can't claim that.

In 1948 "allies" run so-called "democratic" elections in Western occupation zones, West Germany is set up as a state. They issue West German currency, while Soviet zone still uses Occupational Marks printed in Moscow and London. The huge mass of useless paper is flushed into Soviet zone. The border is shut to prevent it: while "allies" didn't suffer from occupation, USSR had all it's industry in ruins and 15% of population killed, so we couldn't afford paying for paper printed in London, I hope you understand what you mean. West Berlin kept paying for electricity, water and other stuff with occupational money, that meant - they wanted all for free. So Soviet administration wanted hard currency for that, it's capitalism, isn't it? This turned out to become a beautifull propaganda action for West side.

If you stick to the blockade, I'll say that the dividing line should be the "elections" in Western zone, when West openly legitimated the division of Germany. Same trick in Korea led to war, fortunately in Europe both sides didn't lose common sence.

Mace2004 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2007, 02:01:41 PM »

As someone pointed out earlier there doesn't appear to have been many people trying to "escape" to East Berlin or into any of the old USSR. Compare that to the problem we're having keeping people out of the US. This seems like a pretty unequivicable answer to the question of which system is better.

Regarding problems of Western democracy, well it's been said before that democracy isn't perfect but it's the best system out there.

Regarding the West's actions before the blockade you should recall that the West wanted to reunify Germany and assist in reconstruction, something that Stalin wouldn't stand for. The Soviet model followed the same model that followed WWI and look at what that got us, it directly led to WWII so it's no wonder the West wouldn't agree. As part of this plan Stalin wanted war reparations from western Germany, something not agreed to at Yalta or Potsdam.

The relative benefits of Western Democracy that you seem to so dispise versus Soviet policies can easily be seen by the rapid reconstruction and development of West Germany as opposed to the poverty of East Germany. I can also point out the great strides being made in the former German "Democratic" Replublic now that reunification has taken place. Again, further proof of the superiority of the Western model and abject failure of the Soviet one.

Boroda · « **Reply #39 on:** February 02, 2007, 02:07:47 PM »

http://jcgi.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,790648,00.html

OK, going home now, finally got broadband inet there (hope i'll not get lost for the society), will answer from there.

I need a drink badly. But I have to work tomorrow... Bloody capitalist system!

mars01 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 02, 2007, 02:09:28 PM »

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I need a drink badly. But I have to work tomorrow... Bloody capitalist system!

LOL now that I can understand hahaha

Hornet33 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:27:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
In 1948 "allies" run so-called "democratic" elections in Western occupation zones, West Germany is set up as a state. They issue West German currency, while Soviet zone still uses Occupational Marks printed in Moscow and London. The huge mass of useless paper is flushed into Soviet zone. The border is shut to prevent it: while "allies" didn't suffer from occupation, USSR had all it's industry in ruins and 15% of population killed, so we couldn't afford paying for paper printed in London, I hope you understand what you mean. West Berlin kept paying for electricity, water and other stuff with occupational money, that meant - they wanted all for free. So Soviet administration wanted hard currency for that, it's capitalism, isn't it? This turned out to become a beautifull propaganda action for West side.

If you stick to the blockade, I'll say that the dividing line should be the "elections" in Western zone, when West openly legitimated the division of Germany. Same trick in Korea led to war, fortunately in Europe both sides didn't lose common sence.

So what your saying is the "west" ran free elections and the people decided what they wanted to do and because the Soviet Government didn't like it that justified building the Berlin wall, blockading the city and shooting anyone who tried to get to the western controlled parts of the city? And this was a better form of government how?? Sounds like a dictatorship to me, of course that's what the Soviet Union was even if you choose not to believe it.

Also how about answering my other questions from my previous post or do those hit too close to home for you because there is no answer?

VooWho · « **Reply #42 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:40:17 PM »

The Cold War started when Hitler invaded Russia. If Hitler didn't invade Russia we wouldn't have had a East and West Berlin and East and West Germany and the Iron Curtain.

Its something hard to determain as though there wasn't a war. It was just two teams trying to act tougher than the other. It did lead the U.S. and other countrys to fight wars because of the spread of Communism. I truly think it started sometime towards the end of WW2.

Sixpence · « **Reply #43 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:44:57 PM »

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Originally posted by FiLtH
I'd say 1918.

The curse has been broken!

JB88 · « **Reply #44 on:** February 02, 2007, 04:00:56 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
Stalin killed Royal family? Any other historical discoveries?

no. i was just adding him to the repertoire.

it surprises me when i read bad things about uncle joeseph...i just don't see how people would believe that such a loving daddy cuddle bear could be so irrepressibly freaking brutal.