Head-On Attack

[DREDger]

It takes two to make a HO go ri-hite....

Woot, ya, woot, ya, woot, ya, woot, ya

It takes two to make it atta site..

Woot, ya, woot, ya, woot, ya, woot, ya



(to the tune of Rob Base: It takes two)

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Bruv119
Steve you obviously still dont get it.  

sure I do.  The La7 tried to avoid the HO and you didn't.  You Ho'd.

Umm in case you forgot, here's the first line of your original post:

I head on attacked an LA yesterday

You already admitted you HO'd. Why are you tying to now deny it?

[mars01]

I will say this.. It takes a split second to decide whether or not to go for the HO, and in that split second when your trying to decide whether the ride in front of you in Red is a class act or not and will merge with grace.. His guns just open up... Its a split second to late.

Yep I agree with that, but I will add one thing.  When you don't have to decide anything because you have risen above the will I ho or not decision, then there are no split seconds where you will be caught, early on in the fight anyway.  

Furballs have always been a sort of ho fest, since so many have not actually attuned their SA to be able to do anything else but scream through and ho.  What minimizes the HO impact tho, is that there are usually so many planes, by nature of a furball, that these noobs cant focus on just one so you are usually lost in the noise and avoiding their noobish ho is pretty easy.

[Anyone]

lets say i meet a Spit5 or 16, co-alt and co-E and im in a 190a8.   I will try some moves, but once i work out how good the pilot is, i might have to turn to HO's, and if the spit flyer wants to HO quad 20mm cannons then so be it.

the only issue i have with HO's is because its not my FIRST method of fighting, its something i aint very good at and often die all the time.... where as most newbies are well trained at HO's.......... if you know what i mean

[mars01]

I head on attacked an LA yesterday.

My p51d his LA both looking at each other. I could see in zoom that he was planning on rolling out of the way so i took the initiative and went straight at him guns blazing.

Most would call that a HO shot but it wasnt I anticipated what he was up too and gambled that he wasnt going to pull into me at the last second.

Such a fine line between an actual "chicken" type HO and a slight off angle shot.

Sorry you can plan a HO and zoom in and out all day long reading the other guy, but what you described is still a ho.

You want a litmus test, here you go...

Could you have made that engagement an actual fight and utilized actual ACM against this foe instead of taking the Ho shot??  

If the answer is yes and you chose to shoot a guy in the face rather than earn a well fought, more fun for everyone, arse shot then you are a skilless ho dweeb.  .

The good news is, if you don't want to be a skilless ho dweeb you always have the next engagement to try and change it.

[mars01]

lets say i meet a Spit5 or 16, co-alt and co-E and im in a 190a8. I will try some moves, but once i work out how good the pilot is, i might have to turn to HO's, and if the spit flyer wants to HO quad 20mm cannons then so be it.

This is all well and fine, but it just proves my point.  You were not good enough to get anything but a Ho shot so you took it.  What I do in this situation, is disengage and try to use my planes advantages to re-engage and make it a decent fight.  By doing so you make the fight more fun for both of you, if you win it is that much more rewarding.  By sticking it out you may also have actually learned something about Air Combat, and if you died, well the good thing is you get to re-up painlessly.

Lets face it we all know who the good sticks are in this game and Hoing is usually not their first, second or even 5th option.  Hoing is a move of desperation as you have shown.

[Bruv119]

Sigh.

You not read my last post?  

The difference was that I intentionally went for the shot because I knew he wasnt looking for a HO by watching very carefully the aspect of his plane in the distance.  If he was going to go for it I would have moved and killed him in a different way.  

The kill was a front quarter deflection shot and therefore not a HO from my perspective.  If people do lazy evasives infront of my guns I will kill them.

Now don't be so downright self assured in your opinion when you don't know what the hell i was looking at.   I replied to the thread to point out that HO's are very large generalisations and cheap excuses to explain why you just got shot down.  The fact that another Bish LA7 driver didnt even get to live past the merge can't be a bad thing.

Enough from me on this subject.

Ok maybe I should have said I killed an LA7 the other day.

Such a fine line between an actual "chicken" type HO and a slight off angle shot.

[Anyone]

Originally posted by mars01
This is all well and fine, but it just proves my point.  You were not good enough to get anything but a Ho shot so you took it.  What I do in this situation, is disengage......

but then i will be called a runner.....

.....so i cant "win" either way. lol

and anyway, the HO would be final solution. if the Spit is starting to get itself hooked on my rear, but just so happens falls into my gunsite during a bottom of a loop ill take the shot.

If i was in a top turn fighter type plane i would never feel the need to HO.....but i dont fly easy planes (apart from nik/la7 for quick defence missions)



i think the reason for this sort of moan is the HO on first pass players..... those REALLY annoy me.

[mars01]

but then i will be called a runner.....

.....so i cant "win" either way. lol

and anyway, the HO would be final solution. if the Spit is starting to get itself hooked on my rear, but just so happens falls into my gunsite during a bottom of a loop ill take the shot.

No I didn't say disengage and run for a sector, there is a big difference in

breaking a scissors or circle of death to re-initiate the fight then running.

If a spit is getting itself hooked on your arse, then yes you will take the desperation shot, that is understood.  What that tells me though is that you can't tell when you are in a scissors too long, before it's too late otherwise you would have understood my last post and you would not have been in a position where you had to go for the desperation ho shot.

If i was in a top turn fighter type plane i would never feel the need to HO.....but i dont fly easy planes (apart from nik/la7 for quick defence missions)

That is such a cop out, "I am to good to fly so and so a plane cause I think they are too easy..."  But you will use easy mode desperation tactics like a ho rather than take your medicine like a man.

I am sorry there are no easy mode planes, just easy mode pilots.  

[mars01]

Burv I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but what you described was a ho so I called it that.

Personally if I am going head to head, in a 3 or less v 1 the hard way, I always cold merge anyway.  But then I am looking for a challenging fight rather than the easy kill.

[NHawk]

OK, let's try to get some reasonable explaination for HOs.

First, there's no way in heck I'm going to give you my 6 and you aren't going to give me yours. I'm going to TRY to get on your 6 any way I can and you're going to try to get on mine. What you can and usually will wind up with are 2 fighters making head to head passes. At some point one or the other will either get the deflection shot and be accused of HOing, or both will shoot in the true HO and one or both will die. Either way, someone is going to scream HO.

Simply put, if I don't know who you are and you're coming straight at me I'm not going to wait to see if you shoot first. If I know who it is and I know they won't take the shot I'll merge and go from there. Even then, at times the deflection shot get's accusations of HOing.

So, put it to rest. It happens, it always will happen. Time to move on.

[mars01]

First, there's no way in heck I'm going to give you my 6 and you aren't going to give me yours. I'm going to TRY to get on your 6 any way I can and you're going to try to get on mine. What you can and usually will wind up with are 2 fighters making head to head passes. At some point one or the other will either get the deflection shot and be accused of HOing, or both will shoot in the true HO and one or both will die. Either way, someone is going to scream HO.

Like you said, not always true, but no excuse to start hoing.  

I was in an incredible Zeke v SpitVIII(me) fight where we were locked in a canopy to canopy rolling scissors at MCA for what seemed like 20 mins and was probably a good 6 to 8 mins.  Both of us would pass just out of each others guns and both of us knew any incorrect move was sure death.  It came down to who made the first mistake.

Simply put, if I don't know who you are and you're coming straight at me I'm not going to wait to see if you shoot first. If I know who it is and I know they won't take the shot I'll merge and go from there. Even then, at times the deflection shot get's accusations of HOing.

Still no excuse to start hoing, if they light up their guns, then I know they are less skilled or a noob, if they don't light up then I know I have a decent fight about to start.

So, put it to rest. It happens, it always will happen. Time to move on.

Why do we need to move on.  We are having a civil discussion about this, who is holding the gun to your head making you read it??

[humble]

The kill was a front quarter deflection shot and therefore not a HO from my perspective. If people do lazy evasives infront of my guns I will kill them.

95% of all "Head On's" aren't. It's just that simple, even in a furball/gangbang often its a question of getting your nose around 1st. I die (like all of us) trying to "avoid" the HO....the reality is I made a split 2nd decision I wasn't capable of getting to guns 1st....then got tagged trying to avoid the front aspect shot.

Sure I'll whine a bit....but that doesn't change the reality. If your not gonna "clear leather" 1st you can either hope the other guy misses or dive for the dirt. If your popped on a true merge you simply screwed the pooch...2 hours with any trainer will give you all you need to convert a "HO noob" to a statistic 99% of the time. But realize that if you fly "lazy" a seasoned vet will pull lead and plant you with the daisy's....after all angles are angles

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by mars01
Hos are not a big deal and usually easy to avoid when you are early on in the fight.

Hos that are hard to avoid are when you are fighting 5 v 1 the hard way (your the 1) and one of the 5 morons takes the ho shot.  This sucks for two reasons.  

1) It sucks for the other guys you are fighting with, because here they are in a great fight and someone takes the cheap kill because even with 4 other guys they still cant get behind you.

2)  It sucks for the 1 guy because here you are in a great fight, you have avoided 5 guys repeatedly and everyone is on the edge of their seats locked in great fight only to be ruined by a cheap lameO kill.


Both the above contribute to suckarse game play and that is why people that Ho are just that suckarse.

If you have to ho it just means you are not good enough to fight for a better shot.  So every time you (you meaning people that Ho) take a ho shot you are screaming to the other guy, "I SUCK!"  

Personally Hos are part of the game and on the rare occasion a Ho moron kills me, I just look at the name and think, "There's another suckarse noob."  

Right on!   Very well put!:aok
Mark

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by aerosaber
If this is a combat simulation, then the HO is part of the game. If you get killed in a head-on, just go get another airplane and try again. Much better deal than the real pilots got. Don't start flaming some guy on 200.

And again, if this is a combat simulation, its not jousting, or playing nice; Its about killing the other guy before he kills you.

Originally posted by aerosaber
I just found it strange that this practice is so dissed. Not defending myself, no need, just conversation.

Sooo ... if you apply the logic above ... why go for the HO ?

I mean, if its all about killing the other guy and if you get killed  you can get another airplane, then why in the hell wouldn't one want to actually TRY and out fly the other guy for the kill. HOs are a 50% chance kill at best ... if both go for the HO.

Like TC pointed out ... if someone starts firing at me from 1K to 800 out ... I say to myself ... can I kill him in 1 turn or 2 turns.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A head-on collision is one where the front ends of two ships, trains, planes or vehicles hit each other, as opposed to a side-collision or rear-end collision.

So if we applied the same defintion logic to the AH HO ...

A HO in Aces High (as far as I am concerned) is when 2 opponents have the front end of their planes pointing at each other and BOTH have a guns solution ... anything outside of that is a (high) defelection shot by the plane that does have a guns solution.

I NEVER die to the HO unless I agree to participate.

Nasty PMs that are generated from an HO and/or RAM encounter is the result of ones inability to take responsibilty for their idiotic actions and must lay the blame elsewhere.

Personally ... I have NEVER EVER found the need to "private" someone, in the 5+ years that I have been playing, to rag on them for anything.