Author Topic: Global Warming SOLAR-made not MAN-made  (Read 17625 times)

Offline McFarland

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« Reply #255 on: July 31, 2007, 06:22:58 PM »
Ay, I was a moonshiner. As my papaw says, "If you can do everything, you will have a constant job. If you can not, be prepared to be out of work." In other words, I constantly learn. I read as much as I can, I try to keep up with technology, I remember the olds ways, I learn new ones. As for the amount of land it takes to grow corn to both eat and make shine, it isn't much. 50 acres will feed a family. And you don't just grow corn, you grow other crops. Things such as beans, tomatoes, peas, carrots, potatoes, punkins, watermelons, cantalopes, grapes, muscidines, strawberries, onions, radishes, anything you want to eat. That's the good part of subsistance farming, you eat what you grow, and it's fresh. You know everything that went into it, and how it was grown. Cars will run fine on shine, mine ran on 200 proof well enough. Outran the police, outran the streetrods. Minor modifications to the engine, nothing real big. Ran four years before an oil line broke and it melted. Could have happened to any gas driven car. Or did the fact it was shine run make the oil line break? Trying to run any old alcohol won't work, though, it has to be at least 175 proof. Global warming isn't a religion, it's a science. And a fact. Christianity is a religion.

Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #256 on: July 31, 2007, 07:54:28 PM »
Hi RetroVirus, welcome to the wild, wacky, world of the AH O' Club

Quote
Originally posted by RetroVirus
Hey great lazs2! Your link shows a graph which indicates a consistent temperature increase, with the 0.0 line (whatever that is) being exceeded every year since 1980. :aok The "leveling off" is a tiny blip at the end of the plot - too little data to form an extrapolation.


That is an interesting comment to make in the context of climatic system modeling.  Using an empirical-statistical model, that comment would be correct.  Yet, empirical-statistical models seem to produce vague, unreliable, long range weather forecasts.

OTOH, using chaos equations, that little blip can produce very large changes in the weather, the stock market, FOREX, or any other system that is chaotic in nature.

The more we know, the more we know we don't know...

Offline McFarland

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« Reply #257 on: July 31, 2007, 07:56:05 PM »
Also, this isn't just about conserving the temperature or energy, it's also about conserving the fauna and flora of this planet. We have seen the highest extinction rates now since the last great extinction - the extinction of the dinosaurs. More species have disappeared now than in any time since then. This should tell us something is wrong.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #258 on: August 01, 2007, 07:46:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by McFarland
Ay, I was a moonshiner. As my papaw says, "If you can do everything, you will have a constant job. If you can not, be prepared to be out of work." In other words, I constantly learn. I read as much as I can, I try to keep up with technology, I remember the olds ways, I learn new ones. As for the amount of land it takes to grow corn to both eat and make shine, it isn't much. 50 acres will feed a family. And you don't just grow corn, you grow other crops. Things such as beans, tomatoes, peas, carrots, potatoes, punkins, watermelons, cantalopes, grapes, muscidines, strawberries, onions, radishes, anything you want to eat. That's the good part of subsistance farming, you eat what you grow, and it's fresh. You know everything that went into it, and how it was grown. Cars will run fine on shine, mine ran on 200 proof well enough. Outran the police, outran the streetrods. Minor modifications to the engine, nothing real big. Ran four years before an oil line broke and it melted. Could have happened to any gas driven car. Or did the fact it was shine run make the oil line break? Trying to run any old alcohol won't work, though, it has to be at least 175 proof. Global warming isn't a religion, it's a science. And a fact. Christianity is a religion.


Ata boy WTG :aok Remember the old and learn the new.
As for cars not running crap on ethanol, Lazs, You're being daft, either on purpose, or it is just so, Retro has basically filled in what I was going to say, - Brazil. And Saab.
Dad's moon was about 80% when it came out after the first distilling. Guess what, you can do it again :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #259 on: August 01, 2007, 07:59:11 AM »
mcfarland... I know a tiny bit about cars and fuel.   I call bs on you car that "ran fine on shine"

What kind of car was it... what motor what mods were done to it?   The hillbilly cops in your area must have stock model A's still if you could outrun em.

Any of you who believe his drivel can go buy a couple of gallons of alcohol and drain your tank and then try to drive your car... you won't be outrunning anyone.

I am really getting tired of this backwoods BS.l

lazs

Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #260 on: August 01, 2007, 08:13:38 AM »
On subjects like climatology and fuel, I don't know where some of you people get your delusions from.  I take that back.  You get them from politicians and lawyers.

Danger, the Earth's climate is heating up, we must do something now!

So what!  

The Earth is still pretty damn cold right now.  What is it...something like 55F average global temperature?  This is one of the coldest periods in the past 600,000,000 years, where the average global temperature was 70F.  And yes, the sea level was higher and there were no polar ice caps.    

Danger, CO2 gas levels are increasing in the Earth's atmosphere, we must do something now!

So what!

CO2 gas is now 377ppm, up from 315ppm back in the 1959.  Time to panic?  I don't think so.  Dinosaurs and mammals lived together, claw in paw, for hundreds of millions of years, with CO2 levels in the 1400-2000ppm range.

There is your inconvenient truth, which is conveniently left out of this debate.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #261 on: August 01, 2007, 08:14:17 AM »
retro... ah... so you would not subsidize the e85 by taking the road tax off it.   you would take the regestration fees off..

Ok... so now you take off a fee that is 50-200 bucks a year depending on state and year of vehicle and you take away the current subsidy of 52 cents a gallon or so and add back in the road tax of about 50 cents a gallon and get rid of the subsidies for growing the corn and such from the huge agribussines farms and... take away the subsidies from the manufacturers so that...

they all pay their fair share... just like everyone else....

And then... You end up with a product that is 30% less efficient and you need 30% of but costs from 1-2 bucks a gallon more at the pump.


You may be right... I didn't get what you were saying.. I didn't think you were that crazy.   Keep the meter running on that counter cause I will probly continue to overestimate you.

You said that you don't think the free market can work... that government needs to step in and force the issue.   "Your ilk" should be getting pretty clear to everyone by now... have to drag you kicking and protesting into the light tho huh?

The industry itself is saying that we are probly better off with about 10% etanol in our fuel not 15 or 20.   We can maybe try 5% and see if we can sustain it... it would not add to the cost of fuel at that point and only reduce mileage a little.. It would work as an octane booster at that level... I had an alcohol injector on one high compression street rod and it sorta worked.  It is still done on some street rods.

As for temp change... it has changed as fast and higher in the past... it will probly change faster and go higher or lower than it has ever been in the future... that is the nature of weather... and the sun... we don't control it and no point can we say is the highest or the lowest we will "allow" or that can happen.   records get broken all the time.. that is their nature... It will continue to happen no matter what we want to happen or try to do about it.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #262 on: August 01, 2007, 08:41:26 AM »
and retro... you fail to mention that brazil has perfect climate for raising sugar cane to make fuel and that the raising of it was heavily subsidized.

I have no problem with ethanol.. it makes for about $100 to $500 worth of modifications to older cars to make work(fuel system) and you will get about 30% less mileage per gallon of it.   You will reduce green house gas by what?   10-20%   you will add 30% but take away 10-20%?    And.... it will have to be subsidized by big government and we will all pay for that but...

I can make a hot rod run real good on it.... I don't mind dropping from 14 mpg best to say 11 if I can raise the compression 2 points or more with the ethanol and pick up another 100 tire smoking HP.

Bring it on... In the US it will be good for the Hot rod industry.  I guess if my taxes are going to pay for something it might as well be more hp for me to burn the road up with...

And... if that is all I have to do to keep you "man made global warming" nutjobs off my back then it is a bargin..

Something tells me that it won't be enough for you tho... that you are like the gun control nuts and really all about the "control"  never happy.   That is your religion.. your god is socialism.

It is a god that has never worked and that you can only believe in based on faith... no proof exists that it works.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #263 on: August 01, 2007, 08:52:01 AM »
the chart shows the temp steadily rising as the suns activity leads it to... the co2 follows along.

There is no blip in the chart till now.  it is always up...even tho the temp is measured in tiny little tenths of a degree over decades... it goes up.

The co2 follows.. it goes up.. as the sun heats the planet and the oceans..  as the temp rises... even more co2 is released and... not absorbed... plants grow better tho..

The suns activity goes down for the last ten years slightly... the temp levels off and even starts to go down...

The co2...which is nothing but an indicator of how heat affects the ocean... continues to rise until the temp goes down enough for long enough for the oceans to absorb it back again..  meanwhile... plants grow better... more people eat.

I am failing to see the big crisis that we have to do something about other than we need to get some way to make power more cheaply than oil to improve everyones standard of living.

It will happen.. solar... nuke power... all getting better.   ethanol.. more power but less efficient... no big deal.. I will gladly run it if it doesn't cost too much... I can always pump up my compression and use the increase in octane to pick up another 100 or so HP... I like HP.

lazs

Offline Charon

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« Reply #264 on: August 01, 2007, 08:55:22 AM »
Quote
But does it have to be this way? Isn’t this the result of (or lack of) govt policy? In other parts of the world the situation is totally different. In Brazil, the number of vehicles running on “flex-fuel” passed the 2 million mark within the past year – that’s 77% of all vehicles on Brazilian roads. See BBC report - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5263384.stm


Brazil has some significant differences compared to the US market. Liquid fuel consumption in much lower per capita, fuel is heavily taxed with gasoline coming in at $4.69 per gallon and pure ethanol at about $3.59 per gallon due to a lower tax, mainly. It has replaced about 50 percent of Brazilian motor fuel.

Ethanol is cheaper to produce in Brazil however, but for the following reasons:

1. An improved feedstock, sugarcane, that is not particularly viable in the US.
2. Abundant, cheap labor that is being exploited in ways that bring up accusations of human rights abuse -- both in country and abroad.
3. Ethanol is now virtually a monocrop -- the only crop produced -- which leads to long term food-to-fuel, price and general economic concerns.
4. Crude oil is still expensive. Any notable shift in crude demand/price will be a serious issue for Brazil's economy.
5. A decade or more of serious economic subsidies to get the infrastructure off the ground -- with no long term guarantee of ROI even today.

There are also some serious environmental issues in Brazil related to land misuse and straight air and water pollution, plus the concern that rainforest areas may be impacted.

Brazil has basically worked to turn itself into one huge ethanol producing machine, which is not that practical in the US.

On the other hand, while it is still a fossil fuel, Canadian oil sands also become viable with crude prices above $40/bbl. Even there though, there is not enough certainty in the industry that oil will stay above those levels to make investment in these areas comfortable.

The biggest issues with biofuels are land requirements and production costs. So far, demand FAR FAR FAR outstrips these limiters. Cellulosic ethanol, or miracle feedstocks like algae for biodiesel hold promise, but there is no clear indication of any immediate breakthroughs (though one could potentially happen any time). Any global warming concerns aside (real or imagined) petroleum is still the only viable fuel source to meet world energy demand (short of Nuclear for power).

To change that would involve a total reorganization of developed society and infrastructure in numerous areas and at an expense that would likely rival the cost of WW2 by the time it was complete with similar social impacts (not the death, but the change and sacrifice at the home front). Triple or quadruple public transportation. punitive gasoline taxes. Force an end to, and then a reversal of, urban sprawl. Mandate electric cars for urban residents (can rent a   diesel for road trips) etc. charged by nuclear power plants. Auto mileage standards twice as demanding as they are now for liquid fuel cars. Manhattan Project or Apollo level funded fuel cell research..

We could do relatively minor adjustments to notably drop gasoline price, but to make big changes in fossil fuel consumption require big changes. There is no magic bullet anymore for the US, though the geography of Europe can help over there. Asia could do it "right" since it is largely just starting to develop, but will it?

Charon
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 09:01:28 AM by Charon »

Offline john9001

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« Reply #265 on: August 01, 2007, 09:42:47 AM »
""The Canadian oil sands have been in commercial production since the original Great Canadian Oil Sands (now Suncor) mine began operation in 1967. ""

Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #266 on: August 01, 2007, 10:20:13 AM »
Charon, you hit the nail on head; oil is still the cheapest form of  energy.

Reading these posts, one would think that Brazil and Sweden are oh, so, enlightened, while the evil US, lead by the Bush/Exxon cabal, relentlessly forces us to burn oil.  I did not know that in 2006, the US was the worlds number one producer of bio-fuel, followed by Brazil and then China.

Another inconvenient truth perhaps?

Sweden, Sweden, Sweden, shame on you.  Didn't you read my posts last year, where Beetle and I debated the merits of bio-fuel?  Our 4.29 billion gallons of bio-fuel produced last year, consumed 1.9 billion bushels of grain.  Yes, the very same grain that used to feed the malnourished millions in Africa and South East Asia.  Starve a child...feed a Saab.

It is United States policy, at least under this president, that our transportation system will be hydrogen based.  We can use a combination of nuclear, solar, coal, wind, and hydro-electric power to produce the hydrogen.

Hydrogen fuel would currently cost some $8 per gallon.  General Electric has developed a new electrolysis process, which could bring this down to $3 per gallon.  As Charon pointed out, the real cost is in changing our infrastructure to support hydrogen.

Oh, and yes, the evil US leads the world in hydrogen fuel cell and hydrogen storage technology.  You see, we are trying to provide the people with a cheap, environmentally safe, renewable fuel supply, and still feed those malnourished millions.  WTG US...:aok

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #267 on: August 01, 2007, 11:27:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
 The hillbilly cops in your area must have stock model A's still if you could outrun em.


There was thunder, thunder, thunder on thunder road.
Thunder was his engine and white light`n was his load.
And there was moonshine, moonshine to quench the devil`s thirst.
The law, they swore they`d get him, but the devil got him first.

:aok
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #268 on: August 01, 2007, 11:32:55 AM »
Jesse would be amazed at the new, improved, self-robbing society.
It would take all of the fun out of it, but he would still be amazed.
Angus, "jack up" or"jacked up"........=robbing, hijacking.
Not to be confused with Gretchen`s "All Jacked Up'. That`s a whole new ballgame and I`m on first. :)
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #269 on: August 01, 2007, 11:37:47 AM »
"CO2 gas is now 377ppm, up from 315ppm back in the 1959. Time to panic? "

Actually, yes.


" Dinosaurs and mammals lived together, claw in paw, for hundreds of millions of years, with CO2 levels in the 1400-2000ppm range."

They got booted off, - mostly.


The climate in ancient times was swinging indeed, and for some odd reason there was no intelligent life spawning properly untill the climate settled. Our logistics could definately never cope with a proper dino 1400 ppm climate.

Now put 315 and a 377 on a timescale  1959 to 2007 and extend that for...only a thousand years. What do you get? Use excel, or a paper and a ruler.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)