High Altitude woes for the Luftwaffe

[Kweassa]

Another thing to consider might be the victory condition for the Luftwaffe.

 The 8th AF time-frame depicted in the Combat Tour, is a part of a bigger war. If it is like anything I'm imagining, where the CT is a mission-oriented, realistic role-playing game which flow of action is more coherent with real-life, then the 109s in their escort role and the 190s in the intercept role, do not necessarily have to engage the US forces to shoot them all down.

 IIRC, typically a 10% loss inflicted to a mass bomber stream would be considered an "unacceptably high loss" for the USAAF. If a mission spawns with 100 bombers inbound with 32 US escorts, the Luftwaffe counteraction would probably spawn with multiple interception attempts all along the way.

 Something like 8x 109s and 16x 190s will hit the bomber stream for no more than 15 minutes, where the 190s may get perhaps one or two passes into the bomber stream and shoot maybe 2~3 of the bombers down. Then this mission expires, and the 109s and 190s will run low and home. The escorts will not be able to follow them, since they are given a duty as close escort, and after some time, another squadron of the LW will merge with the bomber stream and attempt another interception.
 
 It's not as if the 109s and 190s will be given a mission order to shoot all 100 buffs and 32 escorts down. Naturally, knowing the disadvantages in the high-alt theater, the 109 and 190 pilots will do all they can to make the interception attempt as short as possible, chipping off only one side of the bomber stream with 3~4 buffs, and then turning back and disengaging as soon as possible to avoid the onslaught from the US planes. Multiple "chipping" will happen with multiple attempts by multiple teams, and if the LW can bring down something like 20 of those 100 buffs, then the whole mission is a success. The 32 US escorts may not have lost a single P-51 or a P-47 and yet, they still lose.

 The CT is not the MA. It's not the realm where win/loss is determined by which planes you've individually shot down. Each side is given a duty to accomplish the mission, and no matter how flashy and skilled you are, if your side fails the mission then its over.

[frank3]

I believe the Ta-152 is too late-war to join?

It would come in handy for the Luftwaffe, it's excellent for attacking bombers (which what is was designed for)
And scores some nice speeds at 30k

[Shuckins]

I don't know much about TOD but it seems odd to state that the U.S. fighters will be confined to close escort.

If TOD is set up anything like the reality of WW II, then Mustangs and Thunderbolts will have the numbers to conduct search-and-destroy missions....harassing the luftwaffe pilots at their bases and in the climb-outs on interception of American bombers.

How WILL TOD be set up in that regard?  Will the numbers be set up as they were in real life....or will they be skewed toward parity?

Regards, Shuckins

[frank3]

I'm hoping for parity, for life was made extremely difficult for the LW pilots.
Wouldn't be much fun to be vulched every time you upped, that would even take away the fun for the bomber pilots, hoping for a nice encounter at altitude.

[Nilsen]

Its gonna be difficult for us luftweeines, but all the more rewarding when you finally get a kill. Im guessing the easyer side (us/uk) will attract higher numbers because it will be easy but who cares. In MA a ton choose easy rides too, but i dont play to get the maximum ammount of kills.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Shuckins
I don't know much about TOD but it seems odd to state that the U.S. fighters will be confined to close escort.

If TOD is set up anything like the reality of WW II, then Mustangs and Thunderbolts will have the numbers to conduct search-and-destroy missions....harassing the luftwaffe pilots at their bases and in the climb-outs on interception of American bombers.

How WILL TOD be set up in that regard?  Will the numbers be set up as they were in real life....or will they be skewed toward parity?

Regards, Shuckins

Between May of 1943 and January of the 1944, the 8th AF SOP was close escort. The fighters were assigned the job of escorting the bombers, not chasing the Luftwaffe into their holes. There were some fighter groups that were allowed to forge ahead of the bombers and attempt to break up the assembly of German fighter formations. However, the bulk of the fighter groups were within visual range of there assigned bomber groups. So, if HTC has done their homework, there will be no strafing of Luftwaffe fighter fields until after January of 1944.

That was when Doolittle took over command of the 8th AF. He changed Fighter Command's (code name Widewing) SOP from bomber escort to "the total destruction of the Luftwaffe." As the 8th AF rapidly replaced P-47s with P-51s and new Mustang groups arrived, things got very dicey for the Germans. Fighter groups having finished their assigned leg of the mission hurtled down to the deck and attacked any German aircraft and airfields they could find. Special tactics were developed specifically for this task. By June of 1944, the Luftwaffe forces remaining in France were classified as "combat ineffective" by the Allies. Those remaining to defend the Reich were not in much better shape.

If scripted correctly, the Luftwaffe will not have to fear their bases being swarmed until after January of 1944. Between May and November of 1943, escorts will have limited range, no greater than about 50 miles beyond Germany's western Frontier. So, bombers on deep penetration missions will be without escort for a significant amount of time. From November of 1943 on, an increasing number of escorts (P-38s and P-51s) will be taking the bombers deep into Germany. The first American fighter groups to reach Berlin (early March of 1944) were the P-38s of the 55th and 20th FGs, followed the next day by the P-51 groups.

I'm hoping that HTC sticks to the historical reality and does not place emphasis on parity. You want parity, you can fly in the AvA arena where plane sets are matched for game play. A history based simulation that strives for parity will fail.

My regards,

Widewing

[Viking]

Originally posted by Widewing
I responded by posting data that showed that this was untrue. I compared max performance based and eliminated a variable, thus establishing greater accuracy.
 

Ok, I concede the point.

Originally posted by Widewing
Had P-47Ns been deployed to the ETO, they could have flown from Britain to Berlin WITHOUT drop tanks and still have a 45 minute reserve. Being a 1945 fighter, they would have been based in eastern France or Belgium. Thus, they would rarely fly with more than 350 gallons (full internal fuel is 556 gallons). Therefore, I would argue that you would likely never encounter a P-47N with more than 50% fuel. Indeed, the P-47N could fly 1,700 miles on internal fuel, including warm-up, climb-out to 25k, cruise to target, 5 minutes in WEP, 15 minutes at MIL power, cruise back and still have 30 minutes of reserve fuel. It could fly over 400 miles on 25% fuel, or from Berlin to Manston. So, you could certainly encounter a P-47N over Germany with much less than 50% fuel.
 

That’s very impressive.

Originally posted by Widewing
If you wish, come to the TA one evening and we can compare the two in combat. You may be shocked to discover that the P-47D-40 actually has a smaller turn radius at 30k than the 109K (about dead equal to the 109G-6). Up that high, the 109K has no advantage in climb and is slightly slower. It falls way behind in acceleration as well. Plus, the P-47s can start getting flaps out at 400 mph.
 

Thanks, but no thanks. While I find people wanting to duel high on skill, I sadly also find them low on sportsmanship. Not saying this includes you, but after dueling Sky Rock and being badmouthed (which even spilled over to the bbs) I vowed never to duel anyone again.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Another thing to consider might be the victory condition for the Luftwaffe.

 The 8th AF time-frame depicted in the Combat Tour, is a part of a bigger war. If it is like anything I'm imagining, where the CT is a mission-oriented, realistic role-playing game which flow of action is more coherent with real-life, then the 109s in their escort role and the 190s in the intercept role, do not necessarily have to engage the US forces to shoot them all down.

 IIRC, typically a 10% loss inflicted to a mass bomber stream would be considered an "unacceptably high loss" for the USAAF. If a mission spawns with 100 bombers inbound with 32 US escorts, the Luftwaffe counteraction would probably spawn with multiple interception attempts all along the way.

 Something like 8x 109s and 16x 190s will hit the bomber stream for no more than 15 minutes, where the 190s may get perhaps one or two passes into the bomber stream and shoot maybe 2~3 of the bombers down. Then this mission expires, and the 109s and 190s will run low and home. The escorts will not be able to follow them, since they are given a duty as close escort, and after some time, another squadron of the LW will merge with the bomber stream and attempt another interception.
 
 It's not as if the 109s and 190s will be given a mission order to shoot all 100 buffs and 32 escorts down. Naturally, knowing the disadvantages in the high-alt theater, the 109 and 190 pilots will do all they can to make the interception attempt as short as possible, chipping off only one side of the bomber stream with 3~4 buffs, and then turning back and disengaging as soon as possible to avoid the onslaught from the US planes. Multiple "chipping" will happen with multiple attempts by multiple teams, and if the LW can bring down something like 20 of those 100 buffs, then the whole mission is a success. The 32 US escorts may not have lost a single P-51 or a P-47 and yet, they still lose.

 The CT is not the MA. It's not the realm where win/loss is determined by which planes you've individually shot down. Each side is given a duty to accomplish the mission, and no matter how flashy and skilled you are, if your side fails the mission then its over.

Also unlike in the MA you don’t have to shoot the bombers to pieces to stop them from reaching their target, you just have to hit the oil on two engines, or a pair of fuel tanks. And if a bomber is separated from the box it is doomed.

[1K3]

For Fw-190A-8 to fight at hi alt vs the USAAF, 190A-8 needs GM-1 fuel option modeled.  I think we also need 109G-6/AS (high alt 109G-6 variant) just like the ones modeled in IL-2FB

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Viking

Thanks, but no thanks. While I find people wanting to duel high on skill, I sadly also find them low on sportsmanship. Not saying this includes you, but after dueling Sky Rock and being badmouthed (which even spilled over to the bbs) I vowed never to duel anyone again.

You never have to worry about that... My job is to teach and encourage people, not rag on them. Besides, it's not a duel, it's familiarization training. No expectations, no smack talk, just an opportunity to fly and have fun and learn something about the aircraft and the flight model.

My regards,

Widewing

[morfiend]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I was watching "Wings" one day, and a P-51D pilot was talking about BF-109s being way above them (30,000+) as they were escorting bombers.  He said these were special high-alt equipped 109s, and that they had much better performance than the P-51s at such altitudes.

Any idea to what type of BF-109 he was referring to?

 The LW had No2{ nitrixoxide}[sp] in several A/C 110's,109's 190's and I beleive the 410 was also equiped with this.


 Now if this was modeled the LW A/C might fair abit better:aok

 I think this is the GM-1 spoken of...... by 1K3:aok

[1K3]

Originally posted by morfiend
The LW had No2{ nitrixoxide}[sp] in several A/C 110's,109's 190's and I beleive the 410 was also equiped with this.


 Now if this was modeled the LW A/C might fair abit better:aok

 I think this is the GM-1 spoken of...... by 1K3:aok

I think we should have GM1 and MW50 power ups for 190A-8 ONLY as bonus if you scored good enough.  The allies can have their 150 octane fuel used on their fighter planes (p51/47/38, spits, temps, mosqs,) if they scored good enough:aok

[TUXC]

Originally posted by 1K3
I think we also need 109G-6/AS (high alt 109G-6 variant)

The AS versions of the 109 would definitely be useful for combat tour. They'll probably still be inferior to the P-47s and P-51s at high altitudes, but every little bit helps.

Here are the approximate operational dates for various late war 109s taken from a post by Knegel in this thread:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194384

G6 (1943)
G6AS (May 44)
G6/R2 (May 44)
G14 (July 44)
G14AS (August 44)
K4/G10 (October 44)

[Viking]

In case ppl don’t know what the various German abbreviations are:

AS = Bigger supercharger giving better performance at high altitude.

MW50 = Water injection mixed with 50% alcohol as an anti-freeze. Allows for higher manifold pressure without detonation/over-boosting and cools the cylinder heads. However MW50 injection is only effective if the supercharger/turbo has surplus capacity(i.e. below full-throttle height).

GM1 = Nitrous-oxide (an oxygen carrier/oxidizer) injection. GM1 was used at high altitudes to improve performance (where the supercharger couldn’t feed enough air to the engine).

C3 = High-octane synthetic aviation fuel. Roughly equivalent to US/UK 130 or 150 octane fuel (depending on timeframe). Also used as a coolant injection on 190s (almost as MW50). All radial engine 190s used C3.

B4 = A lower quality synthetic fuel roughly equal to 100 octane US/UK fuel. Most 109s used B4 except special units (like the high-altitude scouts and escorts).

AS and GM1 equipped 109s were used as high-altitude recognizance planes (to scout out allied bomber streams and escorts), and as escorts for the bomber interceptors. These escorts would engage the allied escort fighters trying to keep them from interfering with the bomber interceptors. When it worked (it took a lot of coordination) it was deadly. This is also the reason why the allied fighters started scouting ahead of the bomber streams to try to interfere with the forming of such LW formations.

In Aces High as it is now we have no AS equipped 109s, and no GM1 equipped 109s/190s and no C3 fuel for the 109s. The Ta152 is the only GM1 equipped plane modeled.

Hopefully this will change with CT.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Even if they do give the Allied aircraft the 150 octane fuel, it won't do the P-38's any good. They have the P-38L modeled at the standard USAAF downrating of the -30 Allisons, which doesn't even push the limits of the standard fuel. For the P-38L to take advantage of 150 octane fuel, they'd have to allow the Lockheed Allison ratings, and the P-38L will exceed 442MPH. That'll never happen. Not 78"+ of manifold pressure and 3200RPM.