Author Topic: Who will save 2007  (Read 676 times)

Offline x0847Marine

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Who will save 2007
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2007, 04:59:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Better 450 soldiers in someone else's country than another few thousand civvies here.

At the risk of throwing gas on the fire...  

As long as you're getting self-rightous and all indignant about fatalities, let's try a little actual logic.  Since we invaded Iraq, there have been just under 4,000 combat casualties and around 10 times that many wounded in Iraq.  The conflict has been so successful in attracting all the violent religious nutters in the world that there hasn't been another successful follow-up attack in the US, in spite of all the people that always hated the US loudly claiming how much MORE they hate us now.

Yet car accidents in the US claimed that many in just the first few months of 2007.

Do you begin to understand why I think maybe you are focusing on the wrong problems, and wasting your emotional involvement on a situation that, compared to both historical conflicts and problems occurring right in your own backyard, just doesn't deserve the level of attention you're giving it?

Holy hell man, illegal immigrants and smugglers (both people and drug smugglers) murder more people every year than we have lost in combat each year.  Where's your protest over that problem which has been going on for the last several DECADES?

Get a grip man.  And read some history before you repeat nonsense about how terrible the Iraq war is.  It's a f**king walk in the park compared to other equally important conflicts in world history.  Grab a history book and learn to filter the BS you see/hear on TV every day.  The worst part of the current Iraq war is how it's being used by politicians on both sides of the aisle to twist an unpleasant reality into re-election votes.


By your logic, we shouldn't have bothered to go to war.. the # of people killed on 9/11 was what?, around 3,000?.. meanwhile aspirin related deaths kill 7600 per year, and illegal alien murderers slaughter about 4,380 per year.

9/11 really wasn't that big of a deal death toll wise, so why start two wars?

These big bad "terrorists" 1000's of miles away are not even as deadly as aspirin or the undocumented... yet I don't see the neo-clowns starting a "war on" either of them, sheesh!.. and I thought the bush was all about keeping us safer.

P.S - I believe the bush is unaware of the dangers of aspirin; no brain = no headache.

Offline eagl

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Who will save 2007
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2007, 08:22:19 PM »
Marine,

I'm not really allowed to talk much about my opinion about the relative merits of going to war in the first place...  My boss decided it was a good idea so it's my job to follow orders to make it happen.

What gets me spun up however is when people get in a tiff about how the Iraq war is such a massive disaster.  It's not.  It just sounds that way when you look at it with zero context and ignore a million other existing problems that are 10 times worse, and ignore or forget historical parallels and past conflicts.

The self-rightousness of the ignorant hysterical blathering over the Iraq war makes me sick.  Yea, people who know how to discuss the war within it's proper context tend to agree that the war probably wasn't such a good idea.  But the hysteria surrounding the discussion is what is picked up on and repeated by most people who are opposed to the war.  That's what pisses me off the most about Rosie...  She is deliberately spreading lies about everything from the reasoning behind the war to the casualty figures in order to drum up mindless hysteria in opposition to the war.  She doesn't have an alternative, she doesn't have a solution.  What she does have is a vested interest in the entertainment value and viewer base she gains from this kind of mindless emotional rhetoric, and both the facts and the people actually WORKING on the problem are stomped on as ruthlessly as possible.

That's what pisses me off when people spout nonsense about the war.  Don't talk to me about death tolls...  That is nearly irrelevant when it's coming from someone who is silent on solvable problems that have caused 10 times the deaths each year for decades.  If you want to talk casualties, you damn well better be able to intelligently discuss exactly what those lives were spent to gain or lose.

It's like the beaches at Normandy...  Who here would pay any attention to someone who made a statement such as "The Normandy invasion was unjustified because we lost tens of thousands of troops the first 2 days."?  Most of us would scoff at such a statement because it has no context regarding the value of the overall war effort.  It's entirely possible that an alternative invasion plan would have had fewer casualties, however we generally accept that the losses at Normandy were an unfortunate but acceptable result of necessary combat operations in WWII.  Why do we accept that?  Because we've heard the analysis from both sides.

So what's missing with the Iraq war?  On one side, we have Bush and his staff saying that the losses are acceptable because of the bigger picture.  On the other side, we have Rosie making up numbers saying "there are losses!", with no context, no justification, no alternatives, no analysis whatsoever.  And guess what, many (most?) Americans accept Rosie's side without question because the simple fact that there have been many deaths is true.  But the WHY behind the deaths... If you offer no justification and no alternative, your position cannot be easily countered.  So most of those who are against the war do no more than point at the casualties and dollar cost as if those raw numbers alone are enough justification, enough analysis, enough context to rationalize their position.

I call BS.  There are tons of other issues that have worse raw numbers, yet we just let them slide.  So if you're gonna talk raw numbers, you darn well better put some context into it to prove why those raw numbers are somehow less acceptable than other worse raw numbers.  Otherwise you're just repeating meaningless emotional rhetoric.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Dago

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Who will save 2007
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2007, 08:30:58 PM »
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Originally posted by bsdaddict
The thing is, the problems you mention are completely, 100% out of my control.  


So, if then Iraq is in your control, since you want to discuss Iraq, and not things out of your control, we want some answers.  

When are you getting us out?

Why isn't the surge stronger?

Can you accelerate the deployment of MRVs?

We want answers from you since you have control.    :rolleyes:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline bsdaddict

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Who will save 2007
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2007, 09:10:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
So, if then Iraq is in your control, since you want to discuss Iraq, and not things out of your control, we want some answers.  

When are you getting us out?

Why isn't the surge stronger?

Can you accelerate the deployment of MRVs?

We want answers from you since you have control.    :rolleyes:

are you really that dense?  we, as voters, have a degree of control over what our leaders do.  (in theory at least...)  we can't, however, control whether or not someone decides to break a law.  criminals break laws, that's what they do.  we can't stop them, only punish them.

Offline x0847Marine

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Who will save 2007
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2007, 09:40:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Marine,

emotional rhetoric.


Here's context: dead is dead... if the .gov wants to protect the public from the boogie man, they should start by focusing on, oh I dunno.. the top killers of its citizens on US soil? maybe? if they did, that feeling on their collective tulips would be the harsh bite of reality; boogie men moon walk across the border fast enough to put Michael Jackson to shame. Terrorists can even compete with frikn aspirin on the "danger" scale.

If Iraq is such a cakewalk, heck.. we should be fighting 10 more just like it... we can call it "bush cake" The bush clan would dig on that, they built their empire from conflict.. no need to get in the way of family tradition.

About the only thing our govt excels at, is losing the "war on".. be it drugs, cancer, poverty and now "terror"... "its a bitter pill to swallow", "the truth hurts" and all other cliches apply. WWII era is long gone, the neo-clowns are the new sheriff in town... unless failure has been redefined, turning Iraq, who was once just a dirty female dog, into the syphilis tainted hooker of the mid east that nobody wants to touch after George has up in been there.. is FAILURE.

Bush has a better chance of opening a lemonade stand in front of Kim Jong-ils house than he does of installing a puppet .gov in the mid east, even Ray Charles can see that... and thats not our troops fault.