Author Topic: The God Arguement  (Read 6200 times)

Offline Hazzer

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 290
      • Fleetwood town F.C. Cod Army
The God Arguement
« Reply #240 on: June 27, 2007, 07:47:20 AM »
In Britain - a largely secular society - I would say reality TV and the cult of celebrity is the opiate of the masses
"I murmured that I had no Shoes,till I met a man that had no Feet."

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
The God Arguement
« Reply #241 on: June 27, 2007, 08:00:28 AM »
Modern days....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hyena426

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1756
The God Arguement
« Reply #242 on: June 27, 2007, 08:01:24 AM »
bible thread take 200,001:) ever hear dont preach apon death ears? hehe.. atheist are not going to change christian minds and same goes for christians changing atheist...dont think either side will learn from bad mouthing each others views.. suprized this hasnt been shut down like most of the god threads. lol

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
The God Arguement
« Reply #243 on: June 27, 2007, 08:02:27 AM »
vulcan... as I have stated.. I am not a christian.   You may or may not be dishonest as an athiest..  the ones on most athiest sites don't seem that dishonest... they admit that they have a fervent belief that has nothing to do with anything scientific or logical...  a simple religion of athiesm.. they admit that they have an agenda.. that they hate christians and other religious people (their real hard on seems to be for christians tho)

If you openly admit these basic tennents of athiesm then...  you are not dishonest about it.

If you are simply an agnostic who leans towards not believing in god... well so be it.

You can't be an "athiest light" tho... you either buy the whole athiest package or you don't.   Just as a thiest buys the whole god thing.

lazs

Offline phookat

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
The God Arguement
« Reply #244 on: June 27, 2007, 10:17:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
The evil nature of the verse?  The author of this verse of scripture was reciting the facts as he knew them to be.  Truthful testimony is not evil.  Only later, much later, was it used as an excuse for the persecution of the Jews.
The writer was writing a fairy tale that has *strongly* anti-Semitic implications, and is a *clear* warrant for hatred of the Jewish people.  When your God calls those people a "brood of vipers", and that same "brood of vipers" calls for your God's death, how do you think the true believers are going to react?  Again, we can do without any of this nonsense.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
A number of the books of the Old Testament are merely history.  Some of the ancient Jews maintained that the Torah, the first five books, were the only ones needed for the worship or instruction of the faithful.  The other books were added later, but hardly with unanimous support.
So you know God's mind, and can tell us which parts of the Bible are "true" and which ones are "false"?  I don't think you can.  I think you are making a pretty transparent attempt at disowning parts of "God's Word" that we all know today are totally barbaric, while at the same time retaining a completely unwarranted belief in the rest of it.

If you think some parts of it are manmade, if you are willing to take God's Word so lightly, then why not question the whole thing as manmade?  You as a human being have no special connection to God which allows you to tell us which parts of the Bible are true.  In fact I'm pretty sure that "Adam & Eve" literalists like LTARget would disagree with your blasphemous rejection of the True Word.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Does this negate the "truth" of the scriptures.  By no means.  Christ himself stated that he came not to negate the scriptures, but to fulfill them.  Many of his statements reflect his attempt to point out to the Pharisees and Sadducees their hypocrisy in abiding by the letter of the law, and not its spirit.  This is why he called them "whited sepulchres," bright and clean on the outside, but inside being filled with rotteness and corruption.
Actually it dose negate the truth of the scriptures.  The rest of this paragraph does not support the first two sentences.  All of Christ's life and sayings were inside the document that we are disputing; you make the same mistake of thinking "the Bible says the Bible is true, therefore the Bible is true".  By denying parts of the Bible, you are stuck with an irreconcilable contradiction, which you cannot solve due to your human and fallible nature.  Bad move man.  The literalists are at least internally consistent.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
In another instance, He was presented with a woman caught in the act of adultery.  "Our laws state that she should be stoned to death.  What do you say?"  

Recognizing the hypocrisy of the accusers, for the man involved was most conspicuously NOT there for Him to judge, Christ said, "Let He among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

The accusers turned and left, for had no adequate response.
This is obviously a story calculated to appeal to our sympathy.  The poor defenseless woman all alone, drowning in a sea of sexually repressed thugs, finally finds a friendly face.  The law says both the man and woman engaging in adultery are to be stoned.  Where is the man then?  He is conspicuously absent, for the obvious reason that his presence would not add to the heartstring-tugging nature of the scene.

The "cast the first stone" part of it is fine.  You didn't mention the sequel, where Jesus forgives her.  Something which he has no right to do.  If a crime has been committed, the victim is not Jesus.  If the wife in question is not a swinger and the husband has been cheating on her behind her back, then clearly the wife is the victim here and if there is any forgiveness to be given only she can supply it.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Is there any more beautiful and profound passage in the entire New Testament than that of The Sermon on the Mount?"
There are parts of it which are not so beautiful, IMO.  It is certainly not a perfect statement of morality.  For example, "take no thought for the morrow" is a pretty stupid piece of advice.  But I won't go into a detailed analysis of the Sermon, because I will grant you that there are parts of the Bible that are nice and friendly and moral.  Not all of it is evil.  That doesn't mean it is divinely written, or divinely inspired, or perfect, or anything but a manmade myth.  Humans are capable or moral thought, even though they are not perfect.  The manmade Bible is a good demonstration of this.

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Any person who sincerely practices the core beliefs of Christianity need apologize for it.
I assume you meant "need not".  So, good news: those who subscribe to the Shuckins Bible need not apologize.  BTW, do you think the verses in the Old Testament regarding homosexuality being an "abomination" are God's word, or are they not in your version of the scripture?

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Now, the Soviet Union and Communist China did not accept the teachings of Jefferson or Paine.  That isn't even the issue in this particular discussion.  These were modern dictatorships which adopted a sadistic and murderous brand of atheism.  In the judgement of history, that is an incontrovertible truth.
You are again missing the point here.  What actually allowed those 20th century dictatorships to happen was the religious instinct of people to worship the dictator.  This is a religious problem, though not a supernatural one.  The point is this: those dictatorships did not happen because people stopped believing in God.  They happened because the religious instincts of the credulous were taken advantage of by cruel and cynical dictators. Credulity is the problem here, not "lack of God".  As I mentioned in the beginning, the evidence of societal health I mentioned earlier in this thread shows that atheism does not necessarily lead to chaos.  And of course we all know the obvious examples that show that religious belief does not necessarily lead to societal health.  The evidence points the other way in fact, but is only a correlation (which is why I make my statements in the negative).  To make the statement a little stronger, I think it is safe to say that there is a specific cause and effect relationship between religious belief and certain societal disasters (inquisition, suicide bombing, etc).

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
The vast majority of Christians would not want a theocracy.
Glad to hear it.  I hope you are right.

Offline phookat

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
The God Arguement
« Reply #245 on: June 27, 2007, 10:20:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Phoocat, you are nothing if not prolific in your responses. My apology for not keeping up. I would like to answer at least this of your statements. You aren't taking into consideration, or at least acknowledging, the responsibility of a Christian to Christ. This means dying to self. It is much harder than you might imagine if you've not endeavored to walk that path.
No worries, I know I've made a lot of posts in this thread. :)  This solves the problem of responsibility, as I acknowledged to Shuckins in another post.  However, it does not solve the issue of vicarious forgiveness, which is still a wrong thing to do or even claim to be able to do.

Offline phookat

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: phookat
« Reply #246 on: June 27, 2007, 10:22:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280
So, yes, I differ with many "Christian" teachings in this regard.  I do not believe in "Hell" as a place where people are condemned to eternal torment.
OK, tell us what you think happens to those who do not accept Jesus as their personal saviour.  What happens to these people in the afterlife?

You and many others claim to have knowledge of God's mind.  Funny how you all seem to disagree on it.

Offline phookat

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
The God Arguement
« Reply #247 on: June 27, 2007, 10:37:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hyena426
bible thread take 200,001:) ever hear dont preach apon death ears? hehe.. atheist are not going to change christian minds and same goes for christians changing atheist...dont think either side will learn from bad mouthing each others views.. suprized this hasnt been shut down like most of the god threads. lol
Personally this thread has been quite useful for me.  I have been reading stuff and talking with like-minded friends, but it is easy to come to false conclusions when you aren't challenged.  This thread has been a good place to see if my ideas hold up.

Offline phookat

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
The God Arguement
« Reply #248 on: June 27, 2007, 10:41:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
even a cursory glance at any athiest website reveals the agenda.. it is not a scientific belief in the least... it is a religious fervor to mach the  most rabid inquisition christian.  It leaves out any possibility of god.
I have an idea.  Instead of going back and forth about what you think atheists believe, how about we simply deal with the arguments brought up in this thread?

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
The God Arguement
« Reply #249 on: June 27, 2007, 11:43:31 AM »
Hello Vulcan et al,

Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Wasn't the bible written a mere 17 centuries ago by a committee of roman bishops?


I've been staying out of this discussion for the most part, because I don't have the time to get involved at present and also because I don't know where to begin.

Anyway, rather than getting into full blown debate, I hope you won't mind too much if I simply try to address some of the biblical and theological issues in the debate where there are some more obvious fallacies going on. If you want to put it in AH2 terms, I don't have time to debate whether the Spitfire or the Mustang is a better plane, but I can add some of the technical details that will hopefully advance the discussion.

First off, almost every Christian theologian and for that matter historian is unbelievably frustrated at the damage Dan Brown and his "Da Vinci Code" have done by creating a popular but totally inaccurate history of the development of the Bible in general and the NT canon in particular. Nicea was not called to discuss which books should be in the bible or to edit the books contained in the bible, and it did not do this. Nicea was called in 325 AD specifically to address the the Arian heresy named after its chief advocate, a presbyter (elder) named Arius. The Arians were a movement who believed that Jesus was not actually the eternally begotten second person of the Trinity and thus actually God, the Son. They claimed Jesus was the first born of all creation and of “like” but not the “same” substance as God the father. Please note that neither camp was arguing that Jesus was a mere man, even the Arians held he was more exalted than all the angels, and the greatest of God’s creatures, but not actually God. The argument eventually turned on a “jot” the little mark in Greek over the letter o that changes “ homoousious” (of the same substance) into ”homoiousious” (of like substance).

The council itself was attended by bishops (episkopoi – or overseers, not the elders of the bible but not yet quite the Roman or Anglican office of Bishop as we know it today, at this point it was closer to the Eastern Orthodox office of “metropolitan”) from around the empire, most of whom had until recently been suffering through the terrible persecutions that preceded the relatively recent legalization of Christianity. Eventually, by an overwhelming vote the council upheld the biblical teaching that Jesus was of the same substance as the Father, and condemned the teaching of the Arians. The council also produced the Nicene creed which confesses that Jesus is “the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”  

The other lesser points discussed at the council were: 1) The celebration of Easter (at this point the date for celebrating it was not fixed and was being argued over by the churches) 2) The Meletian Schism (a division in the church at Antioch), 3) The Baptism of Heretics (was it a legitimate baptism or did they need to be baptized?), 4) The status of the lapsed in the persecution of Licinius (what should become of those who had renounced the faith under torture and persecution who now wished to be readmitted to the church?).

Determining which books were in the canon and suppressing the others WAS NOT DISCUSSED AT NICEA! In a follow up to this post I’ll discuss the historical development of the canon, but if you need confirmation of this fact please check out:

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge article on The Council:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc08.n.iv.html

or even the Wikipedia article on the council:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
The God Arguement
« Reply #250 on: June 27, 2007, 12:05:25 PM »
Seagoon,

I'll clean the egg off my face later.  It's been many years since I read about the Council of Nicea.  

If I understand you correctly, the council met to settle matters of doctrine, not to settle disputes over scripture.  

Could you point me to some sources on the events or meetings where the Church leaders made the decisions as to which books about the life of Christ would be included in the New Testament?

Regards, Shuckins

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Shuckins
« Reply #251 on: June 27, 2007, 12:06:07 PM »
Quote
Are such concepts purely natural adaptations or the gift of God....or a combination of the two?

Hmm... Mixing religion and reason... what should I say to that?

Your next reply to Vulcan (starting with "Prove it [...]") is the same: asking for reasons in religion.
Religion needs no reason. There's nothing to argue about it.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
The God Arguement
« Reply #252 on: June 27, 2007, 12:40:11 PM »
Moot,  I was asking Vulcan to offer proof that animals are capable of making what humans would call moral decisions....of recognizing the concepts of right and wrong...of sin and virtue.

I have asked for proof because I believe that mankind is unique in this regard.  Others have disagreed, and evidently believe that some animals are capable of this.  While some have attempted to offer proof, I have found these to be less than convincing.  Understanding such concepts as sin and morality requires the ability to reason.  In the absence of verbal communication, how is it possible to prove that animals understand the concept?

My challenge still stands.  I'm willing to listen to any proof that others are willing to offer.

As to the first statement of mine that you mentioned, an unfortunate turn of phrase on my part.  I didn't think it through before I typed it up.  You're absolutely correct.  It would have been a more accurate explanation of what I meant for me to have said that, while others believe the human ability to grasp such concepts as right and wrong are the result of natural evolution, I believe that God used evolution to give man that ability.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Follow the white rabbit
« Reply #253 on: June 27, 2007, 01:27:51 PM »
Well, I wouldn't hold my breath for that proof.. It's not that important, but if it really matters to you, we ought to have the power to emulate brains in a few years.
If any definite proof or clue is to be found, such a method ought to find it.  Brains are fairly well known but disproportionately understood yet.

Anyway, I'm not refuting your intended points, just saying that proof of morality itself is sort of a wild goose chase, in my opinion.  I mean it's a lot like the old "how much does a soul weigh" sort of inquiry.
Science will never have a grasp on religion.  Suppose we stripped ourselves of all irrationality.  Even then, I mean even if we turned the whole universe into a computing construct, we would then be wondering about what's next and/or beyond; from prehistoric cavemen justifying whatever it was cavemen did by their visions of archetypal beings and forces, to the middle ages and their mystical pseudosciences arguing for strange bodily humors as vessels of the spirit or some other hand-waving claptrap, to today when you ask about definite proof of morality in apes, to the time when we'd expand the size of our "brains" to the extent of all matter, it's an ever-receding fog of war.  That's what religion does, and religion will remain a possible idea until we have reached the infinite in knowledge.

A long time ago, I read Camus' Myth of Sisyphus, in which at one point someone asks another (latter a "scientist") about physics at a macroscopic scale.  At some point the scientist runs out of "answers", and the former points out the futility of such an incomplete "truth".
Nevertheless, you cannot have civility without reason.  Without reason, we can bend laws and order to any whim of faith, e.g. someone "feeling they were experiencing God" as they stood in a trance in the middle of rush hour traffic, or the classic witch hunt.

Reason, not faith, has sovereignty on concrete reality.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 01:36:30 PM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
The God Arguement
« Reply #254 on: June 27, 2007, 02:04:35 PM »
Hi Shuckins,

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Seagoon,

If I understand you correctly, the council met to settle matters of doctrine, not to settle disputes over scripture.  

Could you point me to some sources on the events or meetings where the Church leaders made the decisions as to which books about the life of Christ would be included in the New Testament?


Yes, Nicea met to settle doctrinal disputes. In fact all of the first six great "ecumenical councils of the church" essentially met to consider new systems of doctrine that were being promoted within the church and determine if they were scriptural and thus orthodox or if they conflicted with the teaching of scripture and were thus heterodox (meaning “other” doctrine) The question was ever was this doctrine in keeping with the teaching of Christ and the Apostles and thus what Jude described in verse 3 of his letter as “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” and Paul called “sound doctrine” (see 1 Tim. 1:3, 1 Tim. 4:6, 16, 1 Tim. 6:3, 2 Tim. 3:10, 16, 2 Tim. 4:3, etc.) or were these new doctrines that would lead people into error? So for instance, Nicea dealt with Arianism, Ephesus dealt with Nestorianism and so on.

In terms of meetings in the early church were church leaders decided on which books would be in the New Testament, such meetings didn’t really exist. There was no definitive assembly were some books were canonized and others discarded. Rather the church gradually came to recognize which first century books comprised the canon of the New Testament (the Old Testament canon that was accepted and used by the early church was for all intents and purposes the same list of books comprising the Hebrew Tanach read in the Synagogue, although most Christians used the Greek Translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint or LXX). The evidence is that even as most of the books of the NT were being written and distributed in the first century (especially the epistles or letters of the Apostles) they were accepted by the church as inspired Scripture. For instance, Paul directs that his letters be read in the churches, and Peter calls the letter of Paul “scripture” (2 Peter 3:15-16)

Thus the early lists of books from the mid 100s (the Muratorian, Tertullian, etc.) - that list the books read in the 2nd century churches were essentially made up of the same list of books we have in a modern New Testament. Admittedly there were some disputes over certain books that were being circulated, such as Hebrews and thus you don’t find them in every list, but the only list that doesn’t contain all four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) is the abridged list of Marcion, the leader of a Gnostic second century cult that only accepted Luke and Paul’s Epistles (Marcion also dismissed the entire Old Testament claiming the God of the OT was a different God).

The books that you find in the modern New Testament were all first century works, generally dating from a period spanning almost 50 years from about 50 AD through 98 AD. Some of the letters of Paul are the earliest books in the NT and the oldest is the Revelation of John. As far as the authenticity of the text is concerned, this is confirmed in that whenever we find an old Papyri, such as the early 2nd Century Chester Beattie Papyri which is a fragment of John, the text matches up with what we have.

Now, you’ve probably heard of other Gospels such as the “Gospel of Thomas”, Dan Brown wrongly identifies these as part of the “Dead Sea Scrolls” in the Da Vinci Code. The Dead Sea Scrolls were something entirely different, they were an Essene collection of Old Testament and Intertestamental books discovered in Wadi Qumran in Israel. These other gospels largely come from Nag Hamadi in Egypt and were written in the Second and Third centuries by Gnostics under assumed names (Gnostics like Valentinus for instance knew that writing under the name of an Apostle gave more credibility than writing as a Gnostic). The important thing to note is that these books were written well after the first century (no one disputes this) by promoters of Gnosticism a Greek mystical philosophy that promoted a view that the physical or material world was inherently bad and that the spirit was good and that one obtained release from the material world via the knowledge of “secret teachings” (hence gnosis meaning knowledge). In some respects their philosophy of salvation or enlightenment via the secret teachings of ascended masters is akin to that of the Theosophists, Christian Scientists, and Scientologists. These Gnostic gospels were never accepted as genuinely canonical outside of localized Gnostic cults, and when the cults disappeared the writings ceased to be circulated. Today they are gaining attention because as in the second and third century, many people are uncomfortable with the Jesus taught in the first century works.

In any event, by the time Nicea met, the modern list of the books of the NT was well accepted throughout the church, one may, like Gnostics ancient and modern, not like or agree with those books and what they taught, but they are what the church believed.

As for scholarly sources on the accumulation of these books, please check out:
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bibliology/Formation-of-the-Canon/
All of them are good, and the articles by Bruce and Warfield are classics in the field.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams