Hi LTARget,
Originally posted by E25280
I am curious as to whether the concept of "Hell" was part of the Jewish belief in the times before Christ? There is no doubt that it is "historically" a Christian teaching, but some of the early Christian churches adopted / adapted many of the existing pagan beliefs of the time. Watch the History Channel's show about the origins of the modern Christmas celebration, and you easily see what I mean. The concept of "if you are good you go to the Elysian Fields, whereas if you are bad you go to Tartarus" pre-dates Christ. Is the Heaven and Hell taught by modern Christianity borrowed from these, or is there an Old Testament basis for Hell as well?
First off, be wary of anything on the History Channel that has to do with biblical history (and you'd be well advised to take the general history stuff with at least a grain of salt as well - and I say that as a frequent watcher). Like the Discovery Channel's "Lost Tomb" debacle, they tend to push sensationalized "debunking" theories to gin-up viewer interest as the general theory is that broadcasting the old established stuff would be boring. They tend to also favor theological liberals from the higher critical, history of religions and feminist schools of theology and generally not even the best of them. Very seldom will you get evangelical or a first rate scholar like Richard Bauckham or the late Bruce Metzger. I know its more time consuming, but your best references in this field are not going to be TV or the Internet, they are going to be books, and generally not the ones printed for the popular market. For instance, I'd recommend starting out picking up a good systematic theology like
Robert Reymond's and in terms of the history of the development of Christian Doctrine, I would recommend either
J.N.D. Kelly's which is the gold standard, or
Louis Berkhoff's which is a slightly easier read.
As for Hell, yes there is an OT basis for it as well, In Daniel 12:2 for instance, you have a vision of the general resurrection of the dead, and then a division as to their final destiny -
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Throughout the OT you have Sheol listed as the place that the wicked go down to while the righteous dwell with the Lord forever. Believers such as David, rejoiced that the Lord had delivered their
souls from Sheol (hell) and that they could look forward to dwelling with Him forever:
"I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And I will glorify Your name forevermore. For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol." (Psalm 86:12-13). As a general rule though, you'll note that you have a general rule of progressive revelation in the bible, generally doctrines do not start out with the completeness of explanation they later attain. For instance, the testimony to the idea of a resurrection is sparse in the Torah (the first five books of the bible) and becomes more and more fleshed out in the later historical, poetical, and prophetic books. So it is not surprising that the Saducees, who only held to the authority of the Torah, did not believe in a resurrection, while the Pharisees who accepted all the books of the OT were emphatic believers in the resurrection.
I am also curious as to the word "punishment". The New World Translation does not use the word "punishment", but "cutting-off," meaning eternal separation from God, and therefore eternal death. Since "The wages sin pays is death" (Romans 6:23), which is to say, the punishment incurred by sinning is that you die, eternal "punishment" (if indeed that word is more appropriate to the original text) would again seem to indicate eternal death, not eternal torment.
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You may or may not be aware of this, but the New World Translation is the Jehovah's Witness bible, and it is a terribly inaccurate translation of the Greek and Hebrew. In order to promote the the doctrinal distinctives of the JWs words are ommitted, changed, or inserted wholesale, so in terms of its accuracy, it is actually one of the least accurate translations. Of the original six translators of the NWT only one, Frederick Franz had any training whatsoever in Biblical Languages, consisting of 21 semester hours of classical Greek (the bible is in Koine a related language), a partially completed two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek from a liberal arts college and he was self-taught in Hebrew and Aramaic. In other words, I have more formal training in Koine and Hebrew, and that is just enough to make me dangerous, I wouldn't even
dream of working on translation of the bible.
Since the JWs believe in annihilationism it isn't surprising they don't include the English word "punishment" in regards to Hell. However, the words for punishment
kalazo,
kolasis do occur in texts speaking of Hell, for instance:
2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment
Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
One of my previous posts stated my opinion of Jesus's use of the word "Gehenna" in his teachings as representing complete destruction. In my opinion, the metaphor taken from Isaiah does not contradict my earlier statements. Paraphrasing Isaiah 66:23, "all flesh" (peoples) come before God, then Isaiah 66:24 "and they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me, for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh." It does not indicate to me that the "carcasses" are aware and suffering, rather that those who opposed God are dead, forever, and that the notion of being dead forever should be repulsive to mankind.
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Whenever Hell is described by Christ it is spoken of as a place of conscious torment, the most obvious description of this coming from the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:22-24):
"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' Additionally, we here of Hell as a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Also, if you wouldn't mind letting me know which translation of the Bible you generally use.
It depends. I use the NKJV for daily reading, and the NASB for study. The reason being the NASB is more wooden, but so closely literal that I can usually guess the Greek or Hebrew root word that is being translated into English. Aside from that, for sermons, articles, essays, etc. I use the standard Greek and Hebrew Texts (BNT - NA27 and WTT BHS 4th Edition) and a goodly number of Lexicons. Anyway, thanks for asking.
(Btw - shouldn't you be shooting me down in an Ostwind somewhere?
)
- SEAGOON
