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Author Topic: A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22  (Read 3686 times)

Offline Odee

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« on: July 23, 2007, 12:35:16 PM »
Well worth the reading, imho.

Quote

From: David Pace
Subject: Fw: Fighting against an F-22.

'Sprey said his briefing focused on the time-tested factors that define
an effective fighter plane: (1) See the enemy first; (2) outnumber the enemy;
(3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire, and (4) kill the enemy quickly.

Having spent two weeks fighting two raptors against 6-8 of our latest
technology F-15Cs with datalink, AIM-9X, helmet mounted cueing
system and  the latest radar software:

1) We never acquired the raptor with our radars before our eyes.
We occasionally saw it in the cons at 60+K, but by that time we
were already dead.

2)  We outnumbered the raptors 3-1 or 4-1, and never even got a
valid shot off on one.

3)  The only BFM setup even worth attempting against a raptor is a
6K offensive setup, and you're just trying to keep from going defensive.
If you're at 3K approaching a gun wez, he will stop so fast you can't
help but overshoot.  If you're at 9K offensive, he turns around and
shoots you before you get to his turn circle. No need to even talk about
when he starts offensive.

4)  Given the above info, killing the raptor quickly wasn't an option, we
couldn't even kill one! I was convinced.We were even fighting some of
the initial lots of airplanes, before their data links were working correctly
and they had older software. I haven't fought the newer lots flown at
Tyndall or Langley, but I can assure you they are even more lethal. Sortie
rates are on the rise, software stability is on the rise.  All I can say to the
critics is in 20 years when this airplane goes to war it will still dominate,
just like the Eagle did when w <> e employed it 18 years after fielding!
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Offline Nilsen

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2007, 12:42:25 PM »
Im sure it is correct, but if they did manage to "shoot" one down, do you think we would ever hear about it how a present (third?) generation managed to get the super expensive f22? ;)
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Offline Toad

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2007, 12:47:03 PM »
I would doubt it is as cosmic as the USAF would like you to believe and I also doubt that it is not a quantum leap forward in fighter technology as its likely opponents are probably hoping.
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Offline rpm

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2007, 01:15:33 PM »
The SU-37 is it's only formidable opponent and it does'nt have stealth.
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Offline Elfie

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2007, 01:23:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
The SU-37 is it's only formidable opponent and it does'nt have stealth.


The F-22 wouldn't need to dogfight the Su-37, just kill it with BVR tactics.

Even w/o BVR tactics I'd still take an F-22 over an Su-37 because of the videos that were posted in a previous thread not long ago an Eagl's explanation of how the Su-37 was actually stalled during many of those insane maneuvers and the F-22 didn't stall.

I do think the Su-37 looks a lot sexier than the F-22 even though I do like the looks of the F-22 as well. ;)
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Offline Elfie

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2007, 01:24:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Im sure it is correct, but if they did manage to "shoot" one down, do you think we would ever hear about it how a present (third?) generation managed to get the super expensive f22? ;)


I'm sure the F-22 has it's weakness's just as I'm sure those weakness's are a very closely guarded secret right now. ;)
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Offline Bodhi

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2007, 01:29:03 PM »
The F22 is American Propaganda.... pure and simple...  :lol
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Offline Nilsen

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2007, 01:34:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
The F22 is American Propaganda.... pure and simple...  :lol


was that remark aimed at me by any chanse?
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Offline Charge

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2007, 01:50:18 PM »
"Even w/o BVR tactics I'd still take an F-22 over an Su-37 because of the videos that were posted in a previous thread not long ago an Eagl's explanation of how the Su-37 was actually stalled during many of those insane maneuvers and the F-22 didn't stall."


Well, I'm quite sure the Su-37 can be flown effectively without stalling it but Russians like to show its aerodynamical qualities, and the use of such maneuvers in dogfight is very questionable but such stability is useful in any plane if it is flown at the limit or outside of its controlled maneuvering envelope. I'm not sure what F22 would do in such uncontrolled state. Would it regain control easily or would it tumble and take time get under control again?


-C+
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Offline rpm

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2007, 01:52:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
The F-22 wouldn't need to dogfight the Su-37, just kill it with BVR tactics.

Even w/o BVR tactics I'd still take an F-22 over an Su-37 because of the videos that were posted in a previous thread not long ago an Eagl's explanation of how the Su-37 was actually stalled during many of those insane maneuvers and the F-22 didn't stall.

I do think the Su-37 looks a lot sexier than the F-22 even though I do like the looks of the F-22 as well. ;)
I'm sure computers have a LOT to do with not stalling in those maneuvers. One advantage the Su-37 has over the F-22 is the thrust vectoring system. The 37's system can vector more directions than the 22's can.

You are right about BVR. If those two ever tangle it will be because they were already out of ord when they met. But never say never.
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Offline Nilsen

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2007, 01:53:00 PM »
Has any of these manuvers been done with full weaponload, or have they only been done in a clean configuration at airshows?
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Offline rpm

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2007, 01:57:33 PM »
I'm sure they have tested with a load. You don't want a missle popping loose from it's hardpoint because you forgot to test G loading during those maneuvers.
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Offline Odee

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2007, 02:14:37 PM »
I never cease to be amazed at the ammount of negativity posts like mine engender.
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Offline rpm

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2007, 02:21:58 PM »
:huh
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Offline Nilsen

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A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2007, 02:36:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
:huh
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