Author Topic: Why is Allies vs Axis always empty ??? (Read 4367 times)

toonces3 · « **Reply #45 on:** August 16, 2007, 11:39:20 AM »

Just to bandwagon onto what 1Cajun said:

I sort of like flying in AvA, but I find myself avoiding it mostly now. I had alot of great fights in there. I like the AvA because I enjoy the planeset restrictions, and I like using it as a way to fly planes I will likely never fly in the MA arenas (like a zero for example).

But I find myself avoiding it mostly or the things that 1Cajun brings up. Not the HO's so much- I always assume I'm gonna get HO'd on a merge and avoid it. But rather, the engagement restrictions. The last time I flew in there, there were 8 or so folks on, maybe 10, and the fight was really moving back and forth. So, inevitably, you'd end up with several fights that degenerated into a 1v4 or 4v1, and then when the shot down guys re-upped the folks that originally had the advantage would get shot down one by one until they were the ones outnumbered. This more or less kept happening.

Or, as folks streamed into the fight, you'd have two guys going one v one on the deck in between the two fields. The guy losing would ask for help, a friendly would dive in, and then the guy who had the advantage would complain about getting ganged or ruining their 1v1, etc.

Ultimately, I found myself more worried about engagement ettiquette than actually just flying and fighting. There's always plenty of whining on 200 in the MA, but I was surprised at how much whining there was on 200 in AvA.

Like Dedalos said, there are plenty of arenas where one can fly with really no restrictions on how you play except those you impose upon yourself. While I enjoy the idea of AvA, I find the artificial parameters we impose in the name of fairness makes the whole experience less enjoyable.

This is really a 180 from how I felt a few months ago. I feel like AvA is really fun up to about 6 people (based on my limited experience). At 6, it's easy to keep tabs on each other and keep the fights balanced. Once you get above that, it seems like the stringing out of folks from the fights leads to numbers imbalances, and then it just becomes harder for me to figure out what everyone's going to think is 'fair' than just get into the furball and start shooting folks down.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. Having said all that, though, I'll still keep popping into AvA sometimes. There's so much I like about AvA over the MA, like the cool terrains, the clouds, the short radar ranges and vis ranges, etc. I really wish the AvA was the MA, and the LW MA was the arena that was always empty.

Shifty · « **Reply #46 on:** August 16, 2007, 11:41:49 AM »

^^^^^Well said.

1cajun · « **Reply #47 on:** August 16, 2007, 11:57:14 AM »

Well put Toonces. You hit the nail on the head when you said that you end up spending more time worrying about the etiquette then combat tactics. I finally find a fight and wonder if I can engage or should I circle and watch?

Oh, and Dedalos, I have not once been called a vulcher, gangbanger or HO monkey. Not the way I fly, no matter what arena I am in.

Thanks Shifty, I fly with the 475th and enjoy the squad based events. I like the strategy, planning and tactical aspect of it.

I rarely get HO'd because I too avoid putting myself in that position. Usually if someone gets HO'd, he could have avoided it.

475FG Savlan · « **Reply #48 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:21:49 PM »

I am CO of a decent size historic squad that came here from Warbirds about a year ago. We've been flying together since 97. Cajun is a squaddie of mine.

We fly in as many historic events as we can, snapshots, scrambles, and are very active in FSO. In other words, prime AvA candidates.

When we got here we were thrilled with the concept of the AvA. Went in there on a evening when there was a JG there and had some great battles, P38s vs 190s. Exchanged salutes & kudos on the boards the next day.

But a few more visits with other members of the arena populace present had different results which resulted in us pretty much withdrawing from AvA activity. A constant barrage of the usual 'cherry picker/vulture etc' made it unpleasant enough that being the new kids on the block, we left and pretty much didnt return.

Mind you, we were online 'vets', having flown together for years and used to this sort of thing - but being brand new to the AH community and not sure of the 'ettiquette' of this arena, we left. Imagine how any new player would react.

As stated here above, the AvA is different, and should be. Thats what makes it a great arena. But I feel ( based only on personal experience ) that any problem with attendance may not lie in any problem with the arena itself, its the attitude prevalent with some.

I find it to be very much a contradiction.

You have historic planesets, reflecting a particular period in time & a particular theatre.
Setting is a appropriate historic terrain.
Arena settings provide a more realistic atmosphere.

But the expectation is that engagements are to be treated more like duels than fights.

Shouldnt the idea behind a more 'historic' arena be to instill the urge to fly in a more historic style?

I challenge those reading this to site me a historic, documented WW2 combat incident where a pilot saw a friendly engaged in a 1 v 1 and didnt engage to help, but instead held off to see who won the 1v1 battle first!

"Blue 1 to Blue 2 - Bill, there's a Wildcat down there with a Zeke all over him!"
"Hold on Johnny, lets see if the Zeke gets him, then you go in...if he gets you then Im next"

Any pilot of any nationality who was engaged in a 1 v1 and suddenly saw 4 more enemy appear would attempt to bug out if at all possible. I dont recall Saburo Sakai fighting the squad of Hellcats he ran into one at a time. He was historically 'gangbanged'.

If you fly in a 'historic' arena and suddenly see yourself outnumbered, then fly in a historic fashion and turn tail and run! Dont anchor in a fight and expect others to spectate, and whine that you were 'gangbanged'. Part of flying in a realistic manner is caring about your & your friends virtual life, and knowing ( to quote the Kenny Rogers song ) 'when to hold em, and when to fold em'.

Part of the reason for those more difficult settings is to challenge your SA and make more decisions other than 'fly/kill/die/repeat'. Sometimes you mix it up and get a adrenaline rush just from landing safely. The fact that AvA is not tied up in AH scoring also is to instill a flying style outside the MA 'points at all costs' style.

I have a historic based squad, we fly the squad aircraft together whenever possible in a given setting, and try to fly truly as a group. This means wingpairs & mutual support. Not holding each others coats as someone goes 1 v1 or 2v2.

This mock kung fu movie, kick bellybutton one at a time idea of 'fairness' has somehow
evolved into a rules of engagement for many in the AvA.

My 2 cents.

dedalos · « **Reply #49 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:30:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3

Ultimately, I found myself more worried about engagement ettiquette than actually just flying and fighting. There's always plenty of whining on 200 in the MA, but I was surprised at how much whining there was on 200 in AvA.

It is really not that complicated. Dont HO at the merge and don't cherry pick. No one is stoping anyone from doing that if they enjoy it so mach and they need to do it in that arena for some reason. However, you may want to tune off 200 if you cherry pick and you dont like being called a cherry picker.

Most of the whines in there are from the people that did HO at the merge, or did ruin a good fight, or did bla bla bla. For some reason they dont like being called what they are

storch · « **Reply #50 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:43:03 PM »

I remember that that fight sav and it was a great one, you guys fly very well together. JG54 has pretty much vacated that arena because when we fly as a squad we get nothing but guff and then when I respond as I am known to and do so very well they cry foul.

my last foray into the arena generated two solid days of whines from staff members which I basically allowed to go unanswered. on the second day when I did respond one member went into a full blown teary eyed pity party.

the AvA is no place for a squad that plays well together.

it didn't used to be that way though.

however it is still the best place to find people who want to fight

toonces3 · « **Reply #51 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:44:58 PM »

Well, I guess my point is that I'm trying to find that distinction between 'cherry picking' and grabbing alt and then diving in on a bandit from an engagement advantage.

I don't really have too many problems with folks complaining about me on 200, I'm not so good that I'm stealing everyone's kills and I usually end up the loser on any HO's.

But, the whole 'ruined someone's fight' part is what really bugs me. If there's 3 of us on, two of whom are down on the deck going in circles, it's easy enough to sit up high and watch the fight and, maybe, even ask if the guy down there needs some help.

It's another, though, when there's 6 or 8 guys on, and the area of engagement is moving around back and forth. You know what I'm talking about.

What you're describing, in my opinion, is what Salvan said; the AvA is like a private dueling arena more than a scenario-based/ planeset-based arena. In my opinion, the AvA should probably be 'just like the MA' but with historical planesets and settings. HO, vulch, whatever. I mean, if you just tell everyone to do whatever they want, then you can fly your style and not someone else's. I don't see much point in HO'ing someone when theres 4 of you in the arena. I mean, if you're not there to have a dogfight, then what's the point. Your score doesn't mean anything in AvA.
But, if we just accept that HO's are gonna happen and don't grief about it, then at least we can get over the HO vs. front quarter blurry distinction.

At any rate, I'm the new guy and haven't been around for years like some of the AvA regulars. I suppose after some time, I may get tired of the chaos of the MA and want something 'more', and maybe the AvA is the place. But I'm not there yet, and right now the AvA seems like the DA than an MA.

There's plusses and minuses to flying in the AvA. I pop in when I'm in the mood for that type of flight. But the original poster asked why the AvA is empty, and I'm someone that gave the AvA a pretty good try for a while and finally decided that the MA is more appropriate for me much of the time.

dedalos · « **Reply #52 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:47:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by storch

the AvA is no place for a squad that plays well together.

it didn't used to be that way though.

You mean like the good old days where 10 of you waited on one side waiting for a single con to come up and vulch them? Cut the BS storchypooh. If you dont like being called a cherrypickingvulchgangackhugg ing squad then dont do it. I have to say the JG54 that did not vacate the AvA does not do any of that. That was the good old days you miss

toonces3 · « **Reply #53 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:49:28 PM »

I remember one night I climbed to 8k and someone asks on 200, "Who's the zero up on the stratosphere?"

I answered him, "I'm at 8k"

and he said something like, "That's way too high" and some other sarcastic stuff. This was someone who's name you'd recognize.

No big deal, but again, it's all part of that let's merge on the deck and have a 1v1 fight attitude. If all I want to do is duel on the deck, I have an arena other than the AvA to do that in as well.

storch · « **Reply #54 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:50:02 PM »

I present exhibit A above me in the deadlot post

dedalos · « **Reply #55 on:** August 16, 2007, 03:16:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3
I remember one night I climbed to 8k and someone asks on 200, "Who's the zero up on the stratosphere?"

I answered him, "I'm at 8k"

and he said something like, "That's way too high" and some other sarcastic stuff. This was someone who's name you'd recognize.

Toons, he was trying to help. No point in being at an alt that you wont find anyone or be to high to see the guys below. I'm sure the asumption was that you were looking for a fight.

Also, sometimes people try to be funny. No reason to get offended because he called it the stratosphere. You mean 200 in the MA is better?

Oldman731 · « **Reply #56 on:** August 16, 2007, 04:40:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 475FG Savlan
Shouldnt the idea behind a more 'historic' arena be to instill the urge to fly in a more historic style?

A good question, probably at the heart, not only of AvA, but of AH2. Some view it as a simulation of WWII combat, while others view it as a sport. In AvA, where the numbers, even in the old Combat Theater days, were always a small fraction of the MAs, the differences between the two attitudes are just more vivid. In the MA, if you and three friendlies get bounced by 12 enemies, you might enjoy the fight a bit before you go down. In AvA, when you, alone, get bounced by three guys, the fight is quick, fatal and generally not a lot of fun (except for those rare talents like Eagler, Dedalos, Maha and a few others). Was it historical? Of course. Would you like to roll over and do it again? Probably not. But since the numbers are low to begin with, it's not like you can move to another corner of the map where the sides are more even. So, over time, people who fly regularly in the arena naturally enough try to even things out so that the combats are enjoyable from both sides.

Storch's point that the AvA is a poor place for squads to utilize squad tactics is only a part of the story. If there are reasonable numbers on the other side, squad tactics work fine. We've seen this over the past six months as squad leaders have arranged to fight other squads at a particular time. But a squad that dominates the arena with its numbers isn't much fun to fight against, nor do I imagine that its members feel hugely challenged by the opposition they encounter. The solution is to split the squad until other show up, then rejoin (there is no delay on changing sides in AvA).

I imagine that the most historic place to fly in AH2 is in the scenarios and other special events. For those day-to-day times in between, AvA is the closest you're going to get. No one can stop you from using historical tactics, but you really shouldn't be surprised that people will complain when they're being treated in a way that's basically unfair. Works in war, which isn't supposed to be fun, but it doesn't work well in a game, which is.

- oldman

Slash27 · « **Reply #57 on:** August 16, 2007, 05:39:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by storch
my last foray into the arena generated two solid days of whines from staff members which I basically allowed to go unanswered. on the second day when I did respond one member went into a full blown teary eyed pity party.

Was that the day you ran from anything that resembled a heads up fight and then challenged me to a fight at the "dojo"?

Storch Kwan-do. Bow to your sensei!!!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K-XgpZbtSQA

At first I was a little taken back that I was about to be involved in a physical altercation and prepared to defend myself. Then I remembered you were just some fat guy sitting at a computer running your mouth over the internet.

BiGBMAW · « **Reply #58 on:** August 16, 2007, 06:39:44 PM »

I love Historical settings...

Along tiem ago we had soem sort of russian setting..we had these column shaped clouds that went from about 5-7k to the deck..Great to fight around and in...

The last tiem i flew ..It sucked....

It was a pacfic setting........I was on the Japs side...

Flying a Zero..and some weenies in P-38s were scred as hell to fight ..wehn they did ..i broke them in half..so after that they woudl make one pass and run liek girls fro 10+ miles..thee was only 2 of them around...

It sucked flying a slow plane with UN- AGressive Allied pilots....

Thsi was due to 1) crappy pilots
2) Low numbers..no targtes = Boring

Thats why I am usually in a Typhoon in the MA..most weenies I can catch and they cant run away...half a squeeze on the trigger..next target please..

1cajun · « **Reply #59 on:** August 16, 2007, 06:50:07 PM »

I'm glad I replied to a thread that had moved to the third page. The topic of the thread was why are the numbers so low??? It is fairly obvious that the answer to that question is one that does not interest the regulars in AvA.
In Warbirds, some of the best fights I had and the funnest nights were in the WWII arena. More than a few of you know, but the WWII arena there is set up like AvA with historical planesets and so forth. It too turned into an empty arena for many of the same reasons.
One regular squad would climb up to 30k and cruise the whole map dropping their bombs. Another would fly in squad strength NOE to grab bases and bail.
AvA has the potential to become one of the most enjoyable arenas in the game. Please, read a little history on combat tactics, take some responsibility for your own SA and fly a smart fight. A lot of the regulars are great 1 v 1 pilots, I have been shot down by them. But, if a wing pair comes in or a squad shows up they lose their advantage, are no longer kings of the sandbox and the negative comments on 200 start.
I engaged in a 3 v 2 fight one night, myself making it 3 v 3. I got one, lost the other two guys on my side and somehow dispatched the last two. All of a sudden the comments started flying. Not one, nice fight . Nope. It was all, "That wasn't your fight, why did you jump in?"

Maybe the regulars should pick a quadrant in the NW corner and have their own private dueling arena and everyone else can treat it as a no fly zone then some of us who would really enjoy some historical action can get involved.
Bottom line is the numbers are low because the regulars like it that way.