Author Topic: Why is Allies vs Axis always empty ??? (Read 4366 times)

2bighorn · « **Reply #90 on:** August 17, 2007, 11:56:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1cajun
Lots of words (must be a big big whine)

Most of AvA regulars fly in MA as well. Their skill, SA included is probably above average. Throwing some books here or belittle their knowledge is therefore silly.

They wanna have fair fights when numbers are low because it makes more sense.

When more than dozen players are online (especially on squad nights), they usually have team fights and many vs one fights are acceptable as long as it doesn't become too excessive. They do care about "balanced" game play.

Contrary to MA, when you get called on 200 in AvA, more often than not, you deserve it.

toonces3 · « **Reply #91 on:** August 17, 2007, 12:27:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Gazillion complaints from gazillion guys about MA. Unfair game play, lack of etiquete, ganging, cherry picking, HOs, etc.

They want something different, better. They find their way into AvA. Then they whine how it sucks because it is NOT like MA.

Maybe it seems like that. My opinion of gameplay is evolving, I haven't played long enough to have firm opinions of how this game should be played yet.

All whining aside, I can say that I've never been made to feel unwelcome in AvA, and as I mentioned before, the calibre of play is very high there. Additionally, the smaller numbers and 200 chatter can be used to learn alot about ACM, sort of a mini-training arena.

Maybe I'll try spending some more time in there. I do hate getting shot down so much though.

1cajun · « **Reply #92 on:** August 17, 2007, 12:33:05 PM »

My apologies to 1Duke1. I thank you for your service . I did my own 22 years on active duty.

I have just ripped pages 214-215 out of Shaw's book. He must have been foolish.

dedalos · « **Reply #93 on:** August 17, 2007, 12:34:21 PM »

I ll say it again. 4 MAs already. Why do you need another one? The stuff you read in a book - even though valid and usefull in a real war - you are using then as just another lame excuse.

Why do you need to practice those in the AvA? Simple answer. Low numbers means it is safer for you to practice that there. Your SA is not good nuff to play like that in the MA so you want to take advantage of the low numbers to keep safe

Why dont you look at it this way. 4 MAs to do everything you want. When you want a somewhat fair fight then you go to the AvA. Otherwise, what is the point of having it? Rename it MA rainbow or something and get it over with.

Gumbeau · « **Reply #94 on:** August 17, 2007, 02:42:00 PM »

Duke's status as a former F14 jock notwithstanding there seems to be some confusion.

There is Loose Deuce Formation which Duke accurately describes (it is the formation associated with welded wing doctrine) and then there is Loose Deuce Tactical Doctrine.

For comparison, lets talk about the three primary tactical doctrines for wing pairs.

Welded Wing
Double Attack
Loose Deuce

Welded Wing is the tactical doctrine in which the wingman protects his element (section in the navy) lead while the lead does the attacking. The wing man dos this by flying in a cone centered on the lead six o'clock. Welded Wing has the advantage of being relatively easy. It is the primary tactical doctrine for inexperienced wingmen or in situations where massed firepower is more important than flexibility (An example would be bomber attack)

Double Attack is a much more flexible doctrine. It is similar to tag team wrestling in that both pilots alternate roles as engaged and free fighter in a rapid switching designed to quickly deteriorate an opponents energy state. It requires more teamwork and communication but is extremely effective against hard turning bandits. In Double Attack the engaged fighter is the shooter.

Loose Deuce Doctrine is the most difficult to fly efficiently and requires a wing pair that know each other well. In Loose Deuce the engaged fighter usually is not the shooter. His primary focus is to keep the bandit busy while the free fighter maneuvers for (ideally) a belly side guns pass. In the classic Loose Deuce engagement described by Shaw pre merge the Loose Deuce pair float into a bracket forcing the bandit to choose one side of the bracket. The friendly chosen by the bandit will pass close abeam the bandit as close to head on as possible. This forces the bandit into a turn away from the other friendly, who is now the engaged fighter because he has rear quarter position on the bandit due to his lead turn on the bandit. The other friendly is now the free fighter and will initiate a nose high pull to position above the fight.

The bandit has two choices. React to the free fighter and go nose high. This would give the engage fighter an easy shot. Most likely the bandit will react to the rear quarter threat. The engaged fighter will now put just enough pressure on the bandit to keep him predictable. Lag pursuit is the most effective method for doing so. As the bandit continues his turn most of his attention will be on the rear quarter threat. About 3/4 through the turn the free fighter should be established in his diving attack from high belly side, setting up a kill shot.

This is the classic 2 v 1 loose deuce engagement starting with a co-alt merge. Loose Deuce Doctrine is very simple. The engaged fighter pressures the enemy enough to keep him predictable but not enough to get him into hard defensive maneuvers. This predictability enables the free fighter to quickly maneuver for 'easy' kill.

Maybe I am mistaken and the US NAVY doesn't use this tactical doctrine. In that case I would like to take full credit for it because it works really great and I must be a genius for figuring it out.

Lets name it the Gumbeau Gambit. Anyway, 'cherry picking' is probably the most effective offensive doctrine for a wing pair to employ. The beauty of it is you can employ it any time a bandit is predictable and distracted, even if it isn't your wingman distracting him.

As for the rest of the post..........

The definition of a HEAD ON is a situation in which BOTH aircraft have a guns solution. Therefore, both parties are equally guilty and neither can 'CALL' the other on it. If one of the two DOESN"T have a guns solution it isn't a HEADON. At worst it is a high aspect snapshot. So ANYONE calling someone on a HEAD ON they were a participant in is a hypocrite.

As for my online resume, I don't think I'll bother to post it here. I doubt the thousands of fights of all descriptions would impress you anyway.

But I will take the blame for one thing. The AvA is the way it is because good people like me don't go in there and stand up to the 'Rules of Engagement' Duelists. I'm sure the intent was originally to avoid some of the more overt dweebery that occurs in the MA and that is a worthy goal but somewhere along the way it has been corrupted.

So in the end it is our own fault for not bringing our historically minded squads there regularly and shining the light of truth on the 'ROE'.

trap2000 · « **Reply #95 on:** August 17, 2007, 02:47:36 PM »

I too am a new player to AH. I came over from WB’s and have flown some other sims as well. I’m also happen to be Cajun’s wingman and bud I’ll fly with you anytime in the AvA or any other arena for that matter. Our interest has always been in flying historical mission profiles. We have and will continue to focus on special events, because they are as realistic as it gets. The AvA seems like a good place to practice historical plane match ups within a limited scope. Like everyone else, I have some thoughts about enhancing game play in the AvA. But I’m not convinced anyone is interested in listening right now.

Vudak · « **Reply #96 on:** August 17, 2007, 02:57:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gumbeau

The definition of a HEAD ON is a situation in which BOTH aircraft have a guns solution. Therefore, both parties are equally guilty and neither can 'CALL' the other on it. If one of the two DOESN"T have a guns solution it isn't a HEADON. At worst it is a high aspect snapshot. So ANYONE calling someone on a HEAD ON they were a participant in is a hypocrite.

Well, you certainly nailed it there

if guy A & B both have a solution, and only A fires, and B calls him on it, he sure is a hypocrite.

Quote

I'm sure the intent was originally to avoid some of the more overt dweebery that occurs in the MA and that is a worthy goal but somewhere along the way it has been corrupted.

Well, somewhere along the line, it has managed, for the most part, to work. If you have a better plan, let us know.

Otherwise, as Dedalos has pointed out, fly however you like, but don't be suprised when you get called on it. Whether or not you want to let that get to you is up to you. I did, and it has made all the difference. The game is all the more enjoyable for me now that I actually try and shoot the guy down in a fight, rather than an undetected bounce. YVMV.

The bottom line though, is AvA features a thing called chivalry. You might not know it from reading the responses here, including mine, but if you came in, and just observed for awhile how the regulars treat each other, you might find it a nice difference from the MA.

evenhaim · « **Reply #97 on:** August 17, 2007, 03:09:20 PM »

i guess im an idiot cause ive only had positive experiences in the ava:rolleyes:

some of the most interesting fights ive had were in the ava, and filth missions are awsome including the post mission furballs;) if only i had the time id be in there right now...

dedalos · « **Reply #98 on:** August 17, 2007, 03:10:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gumbeau

The definition of a HEAD ON is a situation in which BOTH aircraft have a guns solution. Therefore, both parties are equally guilty and neither can 'CALL' the other on it. If one of the two DOESN"T have a guns solution it isn't a HEADON. At worst it is a high aspect snapshot. So ANYONE calling someone on a HEAD ON they were a participant in is a hypocrite.

So, when I am already in a 1 vs 3 twisting and turning trying to stay alive, and a fourth guy dives in from 10K blasting at me HO with complete desregard about killshooting himself by hiting he guys on my six, or just coliding with a slow plane that cant get out of the way fast enough it is my fault. And if that fight has been going on for a few minutes and all 4 of us were having fun, I will be a hypocrite if I say something on 200? Or is that some kind of a historyc wing man tactic that I cannot grasp?

Why don't you try coming in there and see what the complains are about, if you even see one and then come back and post explaining to me what the definition of head on is. No one ever gets a ping on my using your definition.

As Vudak said, propose something on how to bring people in it but don't make it another MA. We have 4 already

BTW, all you have to do is anounce that you are flying as a team and no one will say a word to you. The MA 200 has a lot more trash talk that does not keep anyone from going there. You are telling you are not going to the AvA because you are afraid someone will call you a HO?

evenhaim · « **Reply #99 on:** August 17, 2007, 03:20:38 PM »

^pwn:lol

Gumbeau · « **Reply #100 on:** August 17, 2007, 03:48:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
So, when I am already in a 1 vs 3 twisting and turning trying to stay alive, and a fourth guy dives in from 10K blasting at me HO with complete desregard about killshooting himself by hiting he guys on my six, or just coliding with a slow plane that cant get out of the way fast enough it is my fault. And if that fight has been going on for a few minutes and all 4 of us were having fun, I will be a hypocrite if I say something on 200? Or is that some kind of a historyc wing man tactic that I cannot grasp?

Why don't you try coming in there and see what the complains are about, if you even see one and then come back and post explaining to me what the definition of head on is. No one ever gets a ping on my using your definition.

As Vudak said, propose something on how to bring people in it but don't make it another MA. We have 4 already

BTW, all you have to do is anounce that you are flying as a team and no one will say a word to you. The MA 200 has a lot more trash talk that does not keep anyone from going there. You are telling you are not going to the AvA because you are afraid someone will call you a HO?

Poor Headwork Example 1

If you are already on the short end of a 1 vs 3 you aren't thinking very far ahead in the first place. You left yourself with no options except to fight against overwhelming odds.

Poor Headwork Example 2

By stating the fourth bandit blasted in from 10K you have given away the fact that you have got yourself in a low altitude many versus one fight.

If you are twisting and turning to stay alive would it not follow that the bandit would have to maneuver in a mirror to your twisting and turning in order to stay HO? This is impossible. For it to be a HO YOU would have to fly at the bandit while he is flying at you. More likely, you pulled as hard as you could trying to reach a guns solution but couldn't. The bandit did. Most complaints about HO's are really " I saw you coming to shoot me and I tried my best to create a HO but couldn't get there"

It doesn't really matter WHY you let the other guy shoot you. It is still your fault that he shot you.

As for staying out of fights, I hadn't notice the "Please Take a Number" machine in the AvA. I do think we should put that on the wishlist. "Now Serving number 4"

As for getting more folks that is only matter of getting a few squadrons to start flying there regularly and this whole episode is a faded memory.

Vudak · « **Reply #101 on:** August 17, 2007, 04:15:44 PM »

Gumbeau, how long exactly have you played this game?

Your statement of: "Most complaints about HO's are really " I saw you coming to shoot me and I tried my best to create a HO but couldn't get there"

kind of suggests not that long. If you have been playing for awhile, maybe you haven't been really paying attention?

Take Dedalos' example and throw out his HO charge against the 4th attacker. Leave it at, the 4th guy came in and took a shot.

Is that really desirable gameplay to you? Does that in any way seem fair, or sporting, or fun? For anyone in the situation?

There's just a point where there's overkill is what I'm saying.

I don't think anyone's telling you not to fight as a team or use tactics. Heck, one of the most exciting things in this game is being in, say, a Spitfire while two higher, faster 190s come screaming in at you from different angles, trying to pick you to pieces. But make that three, four, five 190s and it's not so exciting anymore.

And if you want to talk about "poor headwork," make sure you don't live in a glass house. Blowing 10k of alt to be that 4th man in on the deck is incredibly poor headwork as well.

dedalos · « **Reply #102 on:** August 17, 2007, 04:26:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gumbeau
Poor Headwork Example 1

If you are already on the short end of a 1 vs 3 you aren't thinking very far ahead in the first place. You left yourself with no options except to fight against overwhelming odds.

Poor Headwork Example 2

By stating the fourth bandit blasted in from 10K you have given away the fact that you have got yourself in a low altitude many versus one fight.

If you are twisting and turning to stay alive would it not follow that the bandit would have to maneuver in a mirror to your twisting and turning in order to stay HO? This is impossible. For it to be a HO YOU would have to fly at the bandit while he is flying at you. More likely, you pulled as hard as you could trying to reach a guns solution but couldn't. The bandit did. Most complaints about HO's are really " I saw you coming to shoot me and I tried my best to create a HO but couldn't get there"

It doesn't really matter WHY you let the other guy shoot you. It is still your fault that he shot you.

As for staying out of fights, I hadn't notice the "Please Take a Number" machine in the AvA. I do think we should put that on the wishlist. "Now Serving number 4"

As for getting more folks that is only matter of getting a few squadrons to start flying there regularly and this whole episode is a faded memory.

You sir are either new, not very bright, or both

1cajun · « **Reply #103 on:** August 17, 2007, 04:32:12 PM »

Last post on this. What started as a thread asking why the arena is mostly empty has resulted in insults and name calling. Exactly what happens on CH200 and why the arena is empty. Those that engage in this are the ones that are happy with the low numbers.

Truly sad.

2bighorn · « **Reply #104 on:** August 17, 2007, 04:50:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1cajun
Exactly what happens on CH200 and why the arena is empty.

By that theory all main arenas should be completely empty.