Author Topic: Jug is Handi-capped  (Read 6203 times)

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2007, 01:52:25 PM »
OBviously the paddle prop becomes useful at SOME point (is it a hindrance at say...5k?) love to see before/after charts with reference to paddle prop--R.S. Johnson mentions it in his auto-bio, and I think he flew C's?
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Offline Hoffman

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« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2007, 01:54:10 PM »
Uriel... it ain't the horsepower that counts, its whether or not your plane can use it.

If horsepower were the sole-determinant of how an aircraft performs, than the B-17 should be unstoppable.  It should climb 4 times better than any fighter we have, fly 4 times faster, etc. etc.

The P-47 is a very big Aircraft.  It has a 40 foot wingspan.
That's wider than most houses.
It also has a very big engine, which weighs a great deal and has to work harder to counter its own weight.  Whereas smaller engines do not in order to get the same performance.

Sure the P-47 has big props, wide props, and can be very fast. I've outrun Tempests, Ponies, Spits, Corsairs, Lalas and almost caught a 262 in it.
But it sure as hell ain't an I Win button.  Its a ground-attack fighter at low alts, in the hands of a good pilot it can dogfight some at low alts.  In the hands of a great pilot it can dominate at low alts against bad-mediocre pilots.  But down low its weight and size kill it.  Lighter, faster aircraft can easily outperform it.  Because unlike the Corsair, which is comparable in weight and horsepower, it can't use all those horses like the Corsair.  Its not built like the Corsair and is possibly, given most MA conditions, the worst turnfighter I've ever seen.  ... Except maybe a lancaster... I'll have to do some research on that one...  (And yes, I have had someone chase me down and try to dogfight me with a lancaster...)

Where the P-47 exels in the dogfighting area, and what it is famous for, is high altitude fighting. Which you don't see very often in the MA because we don't have fleets of Bombers at 25,000 feet to escort.

Why it excelled so much in WWII is because at those high altitudes the 109 and 190, much lighter fighters with smaller engines, smaller props, and designed for lower engagements, were out of their element whereas the P-47 was in its glory zone.

Below 20,000 feet a Good pilot in a P-47 will likely lose to a good pilot in a 109.  Simply because the 109 performs significantly better at mid-altitude.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2007, 01:55:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
I read about a load of bomber pilots being put in FW-190's and sent up against the pilots in the west, without pretty much any training, i think they lost the vast majority on their first outing because they simply did not think as fighter pilots.

Doesn't say anything about the performance of the aeroplane.


Not to mention that during the later years, new LW pilots were being sent into combat with at little as 15 hours flight time.  


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Offline Uriel

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« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2007, 02:14:29 PM »
Okay here was the real battle... I had 2 different ones confused

Dec 19, 1944  the 354th fighter group

16 P-47 D-40's were on a mission to dive bomb.. they spoted 30 me 109's below
there was an ace with 10 kills in the group of P47's
they dove in and shot some down.. 40 me109s climbed up and joined the fight for a total of 70 me 109's did not specify models.. but probably a couple different types

70 109's vs. 16 P-47 D-40's

end result 9 Me-109's shot down to 3 P-47 D-40's

4 were shot down by the ace...

and the 109 is a better plane in specs... ????

Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2007, 02:23:09 PM »
Nobody said it was better, just different. The 47 would "zoom" better due to the weight, but in an even climb the 109 was better. Another part of that show mentioned another fight where there were a few P47s that got jumped by a bunch of high 109s. One got shot up, two made it to the clouds and the story was on the last guy trying to reach the clouds. With the 109s flying circles over head he tried time and time again till his zoom climb got him a head just enough to stay out of the 109 guns and make the clouds.

If the P47 was "so much better" as your claiming there wouldn't have been much of a story as the stranded P47 would have easily made the clouds the first time. TV, even the history channel embelish stories a bit because its for "entertainment". It is very rare that they get it all right.

Offline Uriel

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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2007, 02:27:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Fugitive
Nobody said it was better, just different. The 47 would "zoom" better due to the weight, but in an even climb the 109 was better. Another part of that show mentioned another fight where there were a few P47s that got jumped by a bunch of high 109s. One got shot up, two made it to the clouds and the story was on the last guy trying to reach the clouds. With the 109s flying circles over head he tried time and time again till his zoom climb got him a head just enough to stay out of the 109 guns and make the clouds.

If the P47 was "so much better" as your claiming there wouldn't have been much of a story as the stranded P47 would have easily made the clouds the first time. TV, even the history channel embelish stories a bit because its for "entertainment". It is very rare that they get it all right.


they mentioned tuning back for a "head on" and a "furball issued"

further Barrett Tillman (historian)
says: "its important to remember that the P-47 not the P-51 mustang was the most produced fighter of the war" 15,500 total
"the p47 had a 6:1 kill ratio
destroyed 86,000 railway cars 9000 locomotives, and 6,000 armored vehicles"

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2007, 02:30:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Uriel
Okay here was the real battle... I had 2 different ones confused

Dec 19, 1944  the 354th fighter group

16 P-47 D-40's were on a mission to dive bomb.. they spoted 30 me 109's below
there was an ace with 10 kills in the group of P47's
they dove in and shot some down.. 40 me109s climbed up and joined the fight for a total of 70 me 109's did not specify models.. but probably a couple different types

70 109's vs. 16 P-47 D-40's

end result 9 Me-109's shot down to 3 P-47 D-40's

4 were shot down by the ace...

and the 109 is a better plane in specs... ????


ROFL...

At that time 90% of all German fighter pilots were inexperienced cannon fodder.
In late 1944, the german Jagdgeschwader were bigger than ever before, because of a severe shortage of experienced leaders.

Now take a Gruppe full of green pilots with actually received less total flight hours than new allied fighter pilots had spend on combat models alone. Now put them in the worst imaginable tactical situation: climbing up to a group of Thunderbolts... It's almost amazing that only 9 Me-109's were shot down.
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Offline Uriel

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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2007, 02:31:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Fugitive
Nobody said it was better, just different. The 47 would "zoom" better due to the weight, but in an even climb the 109 was better. Another part of that show mentioned another fight where there were a few P47s that got jumped by a bunch of high 109s. One got shot up, two made it to the clouds and the story was on the last guy trying to reach the clouds. With the 109s flying circles over head he tried time and time again till his zoom climb got him a head just enough to stay out of the 109 guns and make the clouds.

If the P47 was "so much better" as your claiming there wouldn't have been much of a story as the stranded P47 would have easily made the clouds the first time. TV, even the history channel embelish stories a bit because its for "entertainment". It is very rare that they get it all right.


that mod was not a d-40 it was a razorback

Offline Uriel

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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2007, 02:32:47 PM »
Lusche even an idiot will tell you numbers count

Offline mipoikel

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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2007, 02:38:37 PM »
He should say: "its important to remember that the P-47, not the P-51 mustang, was the most produced US fighter of the war "

Because 109 is the most produced fighter in WORLD until today with 30,573 units built alone during 1939-1945.
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Offline Ghastly

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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2007, 02:41:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Uriel
Lusche even an idiot will tell you numbers count


Are you saying that numbers count, Uriel?


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Offline Uriel

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« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2007, 02:48:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghastly
Are you saying that numbers count, Uriel?


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Offline 5PointOh

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« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2007, 02:50:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Uriel: About paddle bladed props. paddle blades do not necessarily make a plane climb better. If all depends on if you are pushing more horsepower into the prop than it can convert at best climb speed. Paddle blades became much more useful as engines became more powerful. They could no longer make the blades longer, so the made them wider instead to increase the wing area of the prop.

2nd we have all the charts on performance both in game and on our web pages.
You claim our performance is off just by hearing it on the history channel?  And you do not even show any numbers to say how well they should climb.

You might wish to do just a tad more research to back up your claim. Because we really do not pull the performance numbers out of a hat.

HiTech


 
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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2007, 02:53:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Uriel
Lusche even an idiot will tell you numbers count


I guess one just did. ;)
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2007, 02:58:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Uriel
16 guys with swords will have a hard time taking 70 guys with rocks.. period



You just don't get it.  It wasn't the P-47 that won the fight, it was the pilot at the controls.  The majority of those LW pilots that were encountered in that engagement had less than 20 total hours of flight time.  Some only knew basic flight maneuvers and couldn't do more than fly level without falling out of the sky.  

As HiTech pointed out, unless you have concrete data that shows the P-47 is not modeled properly, claiming "I saw it on the History Channel" is not going to cut it.


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