Jug is Handi-capped

[froger]

lmmfao golfer...
good example  

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Uriel

I would put my money (9 times out of 10) on 5 175 pound guys beating the crap out of a 200 pound guy.. any day.. and incase you didnt read there was a fur ball the 47's just started high

Depends on the 200 pound guy.  If he was Jet Li, I'd put all of mine and my neighbors money on the 200 pounder.  To use fighter pilot terminology, the fight would be over at the merge.


ack-ack

[eh]

Originally posted by WMLute
Sage advice.

The History Channel is a HORRIBLE source of information.

It's a rare program I watch on the H.C. that I don't find some fault (or twenty).

But... but... they have CSI NY don't they? You mean THAT isn't historical?


They also have Anne Medina. Isn't she a genuine antique?

[Uriel]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Depends on the 200 pound guy.  If he was Jet Li, I'd put all of mine and my neighbors money on the 200 pounder.  To use fighter pilot terminology, the fight would be over at the merge.


ack-ack

Case in point.. the Jug is the 200 pound guy the 109's are the 5 guys.. the Jugs were out numbered five to one.
Its not just the pilots.. its the Jugs.. they are better aircraft. its the only thing that makes sense.. how about the Jugs real kill ratio? How does that make sense if the 109 is superior?

[Uriel]

Originally posted by Hoffman
Superior numbers really count all that much?
Sorry to bust your bubble bud but uhh...

Thermopylae.

Virtually all of Alexander the Great's battles.

Julius' Conquest of Gaul.

Hastings.

U.S. War for Independance.  (Revolutionary War to those going to American High Schools)

Mexican-American War.

U.S. Civil War.

The Great War.

The Korean War.

Gulf War 1.  (I am referring to the battle, I can't remember its name off the top of my head at the moment, but a U.S. Cavalry troop annihilated an Iraqi force numbering close to a Tank Brigade.)

Gulf War 2.  (Where U.S. Forces with 3 Divisions took over an entire country.)

Those are just a couple examples where superior numbers didn't count for squat.

And depending on who the 200 pound guy is, I'll bet on him.

thank you for illustrating my point yet again.. the spartans were superior both in strategy and in body..
so was the Jug.. in pilots and performance.. you really dont think any group of people with any military tactics could hold the beach like the spartans did do you? It wasnt a battle field advantage, its was superior skills coupled with superior firepower with an advantage

the Jug is Superior.. deal with it.. the kill ratio says so, historic battles say so.. the pilots loved it.. it would take hundreds of rounds and get them home.. its distruction for a fighter of its time is unmatched.. it is the THUNDERBOLT

[Anyone]

Originally posted by Uriel
lol.. I know your a great pilot lusche, sometimes email doesnt express meaning cause you cant see my face when Im talking to you.. I wasnt calling you an idiot. Im just saying 70 vs. 16- it doesnt take a genius

and to quote exactly it said with the NEW paddle prop the P47 could MATCH its climb

i dunno if someone else has already used this example but.....


put 70 newbies in a 109/190 vs 16 vets (like nilsen, batfink, SkyRock, Fester,  wmulte, lusche  etc) and the result will be the same in the game vs real life, the 16 vets will pretty much clean the newbies out of the sky.

its not the plane, its the pilot, something you totally fail to understand.

[SAS_KID]

Eh put some facts up that say otherwise towards the current flight model?

[Kweassa]

This thread just keeps on getting better and better.

[DaddyAck]

Originally posted by Uriel
thank you for illustrating my point yet again.. the spartans were superior both in strategy and in body..
so was the Jug.. in pilots and performance.. you really dont think any group of people with any military tactics could hold the beach like the spartans did do you? It wasnt a battle field advantage, its was superior skills coupled with superior firepower with an advantage

the Jug is Superior.. deal with it.. the kill ratio says so, historic battles say so.. the pilots loved it.. it would take hundreds of rounds and get them home.. its distruction for a fighter of its time is unmatched.. it is the THUNDERBOLT

Wow and yet amother enlightning rebutial by the History Channel's #1 fan.  I find it amazing how many times the rest of us try and reason with him with FACTS and figures and he reverts each time to "the history channel said so" and personal oppinions and preferences of the 47.  Even HT himself (whoom owned him in an earlier post) has said the modeling of the plane set was researched and for the most part accurate.  I cast my lot with the fact that the P47 did great at alt which is what it was meant to do, and indeed it did accel in that reguard.  The 109 aslo was a great machine and performed well within the roles for which it was intended.  THe engagement that keeps being alluded to boils down to the experience factor not so much the machine (yes I know this has been said).  By this I mean take a gaggle of dweebs and give them all Spixteens Lgays and Niks or whatever you think is an Uber ride, now have a small number of seasoned pilots in an altitude advantage and tell the dweebs to engague.  Even being out numbered the veterans would clean the skies rather quickly of the gaggle of dweeby 2weekers.

Ok im spent......

[Uriel]

HA HA! http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-47.html

Republic P-47D-35-RA Vital Statistics  
Type: Single seat fighter/bomber

Power Plant: one 2,535-hp (wet rating) Pratt & Whitney R-2800-59W Double Wasp radial piston engine

Performance

Maximum Speed (clean)

363 mph (584km/h) at 5,000 ft

433 mph (697km/h) at 30,000 ft

Initial Climb:

3,200 ft (976m) per minute

Service Ceiling: 41,000 ft (12495m)

Range: (Max external fuel, three drop tanks) 1,800 miles (2897 km) at 195 (314 km/h) at 10,000 ft (3050m)
 Weights:
Empty: 9,950 lb (4513 kg)

Loaded Max Takeoff): 17,500 lb (7,938 kg)

Dimensions

Span: 40 ft 9 in (12.42m)

Length: 36 ft 2 in (11.02m)

Height: 14 ft 8 in (4.47m)

Wing Area: 300 sq. ft (27.87m2)

Armament

8 X 0.5 (12.7mm) machine guns

Bomb Load: 2500 lb (1134 kg) including bombs and up to 8 rockets

[Hoffman]

Originally posted by Uriel
Case in point.. the Jug is the 200 pound guy the 109's are the 5 guys.. the Jugs were out numbered five to one.
Its not just the pilots.. its the Jugs.. they are better aircraft. its the only thing that makes sense.. how about the Jugs real kill ratio? How does that make sense if the 109 is superior?

Okay... you go from saying that superior numbers should trump battlefield tactics to now agreeing that skill and tactics triumph over numbers...
Then you claim that its the plane not the pilot...

Tell you what.  You PM me a time Sunday when you're available and we'll hop off to the DA and you can fly your vaunted Jug and I'll take my 109.
We'll mess around for a good half hour or so and see who's got the better score.
I'm not a bad pilot, I'd barely consider myself a good pilot, but I do know that if I take my 109 up against just about any P-47 Pilot under 20,000 feet co-e.  I'm coming up the winner.


The reason for the P-47's record is this:  When they were fighting, they almost always started the battle at altitude, having been formed up for at least 10-30 minutes before engaging hostiles.  They had energy, they had speed, and altitude.
If they were on a ground attack they would find targets, drop bombs, zoom home and land.  Or they'd find targets, drop bombs, zoom away from enemy fighters, turn around and then engage.  Or they would engage as bomber escorts in the stratosphere where 109s and 190s are poor performers.  Or more than likely they'd HO every 109 and 190 attacking them betting on the buzz-saws on their wings and thick armor to keep them safe.

A P-47 coming out of a dive will outrun just about anything.  A 109 won't catch it coming out of a dive.
A P-47 in a prolonged low-altitude duel against a 109 Pilot who knows what he's doing = straight to ground, don't pass go, do not collect 200 perkies.

It is NOT the I win button you are claiming it to be.  Most MA fights take the P-47 into areas far outside its element.
Nobody fights in the stratosphere, and outside the stratosphere a Hurri Mk I could likely pwn a P-47.

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by Kweassa
This thread just keeps on getting better and better.

Shortest post by Kweassa ever?

[bozon]

military tactics 101: absolute numbers mean absolutely nothing.

The 16 jugs might as well attacked 200 or 500 109s. The effective number that can join a furball is limited. Identification, confusion, radio overload (sum it all as saturated SA), fear of collisions, disorder - limit the effective numbers of planes that can actually engage. A small force with an advantage (usually surprise) will often attack a much larger force, cause havoc and disengage successfully. This is true in all fields of combat - land sea and air.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Lusche
You can even set up a similar thing even here:

Give me another veteran player. Doesn't even have to be one of that few legendary Jug pilots we do have. Put us into 2 P-47's, at any alt from 10-25k.

Then grab 9 two-weekers. Put then in any 109 a few thousand feet below us and tell them: "Get that planes above you!"

Having a more than 4-1 advantage won't save them. Their lack of experience (and thus the resulting lack of skill) combined with a tactical disadvantage will be more than sufficient to send them down in flames...

You just described my dream !

Until it happen I'll continue vulching

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Uriel
Case in point.. the Jug is the 200 pound guy the 109's are the 5 guys.. the Jugs were out numbered five to one.
Its not just the pilots.. its the Jugs.. they are better aircraft. its the only thing that makes sense.. how about the Jugs real kill ratio? How does that make sense if the 109 is superior?

Let me explain it in a little more simple terms.

Imagine, you are just fresh out of flight school.  You have about 30 hours total flight time and maybe 10 out of those are in the P-47 when you arrive in the ETO and posted to an operational combat squadron.  

You fly your first flight and as bad luck would have it, you're stuck in a flight of fresh pilots, with just about as much flying hours as you do.

You and your intrepid flight of young, fresh out of flight school knights of the sky are tooling around in your P-47s.  You guys feel invincible because, after all you're in the Thunderbolt, the most mighty aircraft in the sky.  The Jug outclasses everything else in the sky, nothing can out perform it.  You guys are hunters looking for prey.

As you fly along, you see in the distance a lone bf 109 at 15,000ft.  You and your cohorts adjust your goggles, firewall the throttle and bore down on the helpless lone German.  You guys can feel the kill and it's just a matter of time before the German realizes that he's absolutely no match for you, I mean, you're in the P-47, it's the uberest of the uber.  You might as well be in God mode, you're that invincible.

You guys make your pass and as you get close, the Bf 109 snap rolls under you and you look behind you only to see it level up behind your flight, flames coming from it's guns.  BOOM! Poor Red-shirt Jug Pilot #4 just got wasted.  WHAT?!?!  How can this be?  He was in a P-47!  

The rest of the flight is still in shock...the Bf 109 saddles up on another and fires...BOOM!  Red-shirt Jug Pilot #3 just bought the farm.  2 dead in less than 30 seconds...something is seriously wrong...I mean you guys are in P-47s for Jeebus sake!  This shouldn't be happening.

You  break and the other greenhorn dive to the deck.  Red-shirt Jug Pilot #2, has an epiphany...he realizes the Jug can't out maneuver a Bf 109 and his P-47 is really no match for what is a far more experienced foe in the Bf 109.  His only chance to survive is to use his better dive ability to escape.  Which he does.  Too bad though, you still think that you can out perform the  Bf 109.  So you try and go vertical, thinking that your bigger engine can carry your plane to the Heavens.  Only thing, you didn't realize that at medium to low altitudes, the Bf 109 is the superior plane and is easily able to match your vertical climb.  Before you even think of trying another maneuver, you blow up.  What you didn't realize is that the guy you were flying against is an ace with 150 kills...correction, 154 kills.


ack-ack