Jug is Handi-capped

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Uriel
Paddle props my man did you see the history channel dogfights.. 40 109's vs 16 Jugs.. lost 3 jugs, but 7 109's???????

that actually could've been..most probably was........skill and training. looking at those specs, there's NO WAY a 47 should be able to turn, OR climb with a 109.......that'd be like saying a 67 cadi coupe deville can easily outrun and corner better than a brand new Z06 corvette:D

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Uriel
I respect that.. and appreciate the response.. Im not bashing the game- I love it, and the hard work you do. But when case history and game do not add up I will bring it up. I always love a good debate

aahh.......someone peed in your wheaties then?

[Eagler]

by the time the 47's appeared in any numbers over Europe  -  the majority of german pilots were newbies

even then, my guess is the 47's destroyed more german aircraft on the ground than they did in the air

[bj229r]

Lol I have no idea who this guy is, but I bet Widewing will squash him like a bug

he P-47 was also especially good at climbing. At sea level its climb rate was 4,900 fpm, four minutes and 15 seconds later it at 20,000 ft it was maintaining 4,400 fpm. Time to 30,000 was 6 ¾ minutes; this with full internal tanks and fully armed. It had also been flown to 46,500 and the pilot claimed it was capable of a bit more..

(The "M" could mebbe do this, but not the C/D series, which he was talking about)http://ezinearticles.com/?The-P-47-Thunderbolt-Fighter/Bomber&id=188545

I know a loaded D40 in AH climbs at 2200 on default auto-climb (no ord, I believe)  Saw another site that said 2780 fpm...

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Karnak
1) The History Channel is a very bad source of information.

2) Start building a reliable library of books.  Get primary source documents if possible.

3) The P-47 in AH is a very capable aircraft.

4)  Look up Francis Gabreski's coment about the P-47 being a fighter.

Sage advice.

The History Channel is a HORRIBLE source of information.

It's a rare program I watch on the H.C. that I don't find some fault (or twenty).

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by WMLute
Sage advice.

The History Channel is a HORRIBLE source of information.

It's a rare program I watch on the H.C. that I don't find some fault (or twenty).

Not to mention they have found the head-on pass makes for better tv!  So basically all you see are head-ons!  

[SgtPappy]

Most things said on the History channel (especially that dogfights show) is pretty much all from veteran memory.

You're not going to get hardcore data from that show. Some of that data may really prove to be very VERY in determining the winner of a dogfight.

[Motherland]

Uriel, is your ingame name SamRambo or something to that effect? He was ranting about American planes being handicapped in the MA the other night, and his arguements (or lack thereof) seemed similar to yours.

[Widewing]

I think the problem here is that people do not recognize that the P-47 was designed for high altitude combat. At its best altitude, it did out-climb most fighters. The problem in AH2 is that there are very few fights at 30,000 feet. Up that high, the P-47s rule the roost. Down on the deck, the Jug is out of its element.

It's important to realize that virtually all USAAF fighters after 1943 were engineered for combat above 20,000 feet. After all, where the bombers fly is where the air war is fought.

My regards,

Widewing

[Uriel]

Originally posted by CAP1
aahh.......someone peed in your wheaties then?

I was being respectfull I know how you all love to stroke eachother and say what a good pilot you are, but in reality numbers do count

I would put my money (9 times out of 10) on 5 175 pound guys beating the crap out of a 200 pound guy.. any day.. and incase you didnt read there was a fur ball the 47's just started high

[vorticon]

Originally posted by Uriel
I was being respectfull I know how you all love to stroke eachother and say what a good pilot you are, but in reality numbers do count

I would put my money (9 times out of 10) on 5 175 pound guys beating the crap out of a 200 pound guy.. any day.. and incase you didnt read there was a fur ball the 47's just started high

i again point you to the hurricanes record at Malta.

numbers are great, but they don't account for competence, or lack thereof in the planes or the pilots...

[Hoffman]

Superior numbers really count all that much?
Sorry to bust your bubble bud but uhh...

Thermopylae.

Virtually all of Alexander the Great's battles.

Julius' Conquest of Gaul.

Hastings.

U.S. War for Independance.  (Revolutionary War to those going to American High Schools)

Mexican-American War.

U.S. Civil War.

The Great War.

The Korean War.

Gulf War 1.  (I am referring to the battle, I can't remember its name off the top of my head at the moment, but a U.S. Cavalry troop annihilated an Iraqi force numbering close to a Tank Brigade.)

Gulf War 2.  (Where U.S. Forces with 3 Divisions took over an entire country.)

Those are just a couple examples where superior numbers didn't count for squat.

And depending on who the 200 pound guy is, I'll bet on him.

[Golfer]

When it comes down to it there are some cases in which numbers do matter and there are others it's all about the quality of opponent.

Take this poor guy:



He's completely outclassed by 3 much higher performance pieces of...uhh..equipment than he.  He's never going to be able to take them in a straight up melee free for all.  They've got the speed and agility to make short work of him at all altitudes and all strategic positions.


If he on the other hand were to find himself up against this:



He'd have a much better chance of taking on all 3 lumbering targets.  Compared to the previous photo these are much more cumbersome and less agile.  Flexibility in the heat of the moment is limited and they wouldn't really have much of a shot when it came to pinning down a moving target.  Not to say a direct hit wouldn't hurt but that's using a 20mm cannon against a dove and won't yield much success.  

As you can see this is uneqivocal evidence that it is not only the quality of pilot but the quality of the piece of equipment you're up against is equally important.  I think Uriel is on to something.  It's the weekend, it's 1am and I'm posting.  Tonight I'm going to try to find myself outclassed

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Eagler
by the time the 47's appeared in any numbers over Europe  -  the majority of german pilots were newbies

even then, my guess is the 47's destroyed more german aircraft on the ground than they did in the air

P-47s were flying in "numbers" (3 full groups) by April 8, 1943. The Luftwaffe in the west was manned by mostly veterans. If anyone could be called newbies, it was the 56th and 78th fighter groups, which consisted largely of pilots with zero combat time.

In aerial combat over Europe, P-47s shot down 3,572 enemy aircraft and destroyed another 3,315 on the ground. In addition, the Jugs destroyed an estimated 9,000 locomotives, 86,000 railway cars, 68,000 trucks and 6,000 armored vehicles and tanks. The top scoring ETO/MTO fighter group flew P-47s. The top scoring ETO/MTO aces flew P-47s. Also of interest; the P-47 had the lowest loss to sortie ratio of any major Allied fighter (0.7%).

According to Dr. Frank Olynyk, 8th AF P-47s shot down 3 times as many of the Luftwaffe's top aces than P-51s did.

My regards,

Widewing

[froger]

Originally posted by hitech
Uriel: About paddle bladed props. paddle blades do not necessarily make a plane climb better. If all depends on if you are pushing more horsepower into the prop than it can convert at best climb speed. Paddle blades became much more useful as engines became more powerful. They could no longer make the blades longer, so the made them wider instead to increase the wing area of the prop.

2nd we have all the charts on performance both in game and on our web pages.
You claim our performance is off just by hearing it on the history channel?  And you do not even show any numbers to say how well they should climb.

You might wish to do just a tad more research to back up your claim. Because we really do not pull the performance numbers out of a hat.

HiTech

ouchie......
FLAMED by HTC:O