Author Topic: Dangerous showboating in an airliner (Read 2180 times)

AquaShrimp · « **on:** October 28, 2007, 12:46:04 PM »

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ef8_1192841608

Check out how low and slow this Portugese airliner is flying. Hes gotta be just above stall speed, altitude around 100 ft agl. Reminds me of that B-52 pilot who stalled and got his whole crew killed.

Chairboy · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2007, 12:58:21 PM »

I looked for the airspeed indicator in the video, but couldn't find it, why do you think he was "just above stall"?

It's easy to misinterpret speed w/ big planes, they look like they're going a lot slower than they really are because of scale.

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2007, 01:05:04 PM »

Don't feel bad Chairboy, you're still pretty new to flying. You'll get the hang of judging airspeeds one of these days. If you need some tips feel free to PM me.

I'm using three factors to judge the airspeed. One, I'm comparing it to the speeds that I saw the UPS cargo aircraft land and takeoff at (I worked at the airhub for six years). Two, I'm judging the airspeed on the angle of attack of the nose, and how the plane loses altitude when the AoA even slightly decreases. Three, the movement of the terrain below the aircraft isn't passing all that fast.

Black Sheep · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2007, 01:07:15 PM »

It doesn't take an amateur pilot or an airspeed indicator to notice he was draggin *ss in that turn. He was close to cartwheeling there and eating dirt.

Chairboy · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2007, 01:08:11 PM »

Don't feel bad, AquaShrimp, condescension is something you'll eventually grow out of. (rolling eyes)

Look, you're using a visual estimation of groundspeed to determine the only number that matters, which is airspeed. That's simply inaccurate, unless you have the ATIS info from that field for that moment. There could be a 10-20 knot headwind that makes his approach look slower. That, added with the size illusion means that shooting from the hip with "gosh, this guy is dangerous" is a bit silly.

Fishu · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2007, 01:39:13 PM »

Who cares if it's close to stall if it is within safe limits. He's probably been doing something like v+5 to v+15. Had it been too close he wouldn't been able to pull up because the plane would've avoided the stall by pushing nose down.

Golfer · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:01:52 PM »

He's not going that slow. The speed is a little deceptive because of the proximity to the ground and the size of the airplane. Looking at the flap setting and deck angle he's got a way to go before he stalls and is most likely Vshaker + 30 or more...or right around 1.3x stall speed.

I think stalling would have been the least of his problems and worries had the airplane had a premature reuniting with Mother Earth.

I'll chalk a notch up into the that's not the smartest/safest thing to do side of things though.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:15:41 PM »

Looked like he was putting on a show, but still under total control. Nice bit of flying there. It can't be all that easy to horse around that much airplane.

By the way Aquashrimp....how long have you been a pilot??? Seems kind of odd that you would bust Chairboy's chops on a subject like this when the only experiance you've mentioned is that you worked at a UPS hub when Chairboy is an ACTUAL pilot and might know more about the subject than you do. OPPS I forgot, we've had this discussion before. You know everything there is to know about everything from reading your books and your college education. My bad.

Golfer · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:18:24 PM »

Maybe he'll post more facts about the F-14

AKIron · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:22:19 PM »

If the airliner was empty no big deal. If it was full of passengers the guy should lose his license.

Unless of course it was full of Iranians in which case

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:54:39 PM »

Hmm, Fishu was able to estimate the airliner's speed too. I guess its an IQ thing.

What does flying have to do with estimating a plane's speed from the ground? I've logged time in about 4 different types light planes, along with a helo too. That irrelevant. I told you how I came up with my estimation of the airspeed.

AKIron · « **Reply #11 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:59:39 PM »

That sort of maneuvering that close to the ground was an unnecessary risk regardless of airspeed. That there was an audience and filmer indicates this was not the ordinary approach of an airliner transporting passengers.

crockett · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2007, 03:19:00 PM »

Well being all the cameramen were there I'd guess it was some sort of demo. But he did get his wing crazy close to the ground.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2007, 03:25:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Hmm, Fishu was able to estimate the airliner's speed too. I guess its an IQ thing.

What does flying have to do with estimating a plane's speed from the ground? I've logged time in about 4 different types light planes, along with a helo too. That irrelevant. I told you how I came up with my estimation of the airspeed.

OK I'll bite. You've "logged" time in about 4 different planes and a helo. "About" 4 different planes? You don't know how many different planes you've flown in? What kind of planes? What kind of helo? Was that time logged as the pilot or as a passenger? It does make a differance and it is relevant.

Your factors for figuring out the speed are off as well.

1. You based your stall factor on watching cargo planes landing at the HUB you worked at. I take it those were loaded aircraft you were watching? If the plane in this clip was empty the stall speed would be significantly lower than if the plane was fully loaded.

2. With flaps deployed and flying slow any change in the AoA will result in a slight decrease in altitude until the wing starts generating addtional lift from the increased forward airspeed regardless of if the plane was near stall speed or not.

3. Last but not least you based the speed compared to the relative movement of the plane over the ground without considering the fact that the camera was ALSO moving/rotating to follow the plane in flight from a fixed location while the aircraft was flying away from the camera which creates an optical illusion of slower relative speed.

Your right about one thing though....it is an IQ thing.

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2007, 03:39:19 PM »

Very nice rebuttal Hornet.

However, heres the facts. I'm clear on what I saw in the video. It was a pilot, flying very slow and low to the ground, in an airliner. He loses altitude at a couple of points, and his wing gets dangerously close to the ground.

For whatever reason, you and Chairboy are horribly confused by this. Its alright to be confused and befuddled. But for those of us who aren't, we can clearly see what is happening in the video.