A question of respect...

[raptor33]

Originally posted by Tiger
OK... very poor analagy there buddy.  You pay $15 to play a game here.  A game that envolves a few things.

1) the ability to shoot down the enemy planes/gvs
2) the ability to blow up stuff on the ground
3) the ability to caprture a base

Basically they are doign what they payed for.  He is eating his burger, fried, and drinking his shake.  

You are the guy who complains because the people behind you have a 1 year old cutting teeth who is crying and runing your fine dining experience.

Great analogy tiger...here is a better one...
I am enjoying my fries burger and shake. He , on the other hand, found that he doesnt like fries and prefers onion rings...so he is complaining that I still get to eat fries.
Funny...I saw his analogy about taking the crap on the table and whereas it certainly supported his point, it unfortunately had absolutely no comparison to the situation being discussed.

Raptor 33

[dedalos]

Originally posted by raptor33
Great analogy tiger...here is a better one...
I am enjoying my fries burger and shake. He , on the other hand, found that he doesnt like fries and prefers onion rings...so he is complaining that I still get to eat fries.
Funny...I saw his analogy about taking the crap on the table and whereas it certainly supported his point, it unfortunately had absolutely no comparison to the situation being discussed.

Raptor 33

Or, he went to the same restaurant he has been going to for years to eat hi burger and fries and some squeaker got in the kitchen and threw them in the garbage.  Then said squeaker tells him to STFU eat the onion rings that were left or leave the restaurant.

You can try your dweebness err squad operations in the MAs.  They are welcomed there.  Why in the AvA?

[raptor33]

Simple answer dedalos.....we have grown accustomed to plane sets that are realistic. MA has spit v spit.
Look...we made it clear that we are willing to eat our fries away from the guys that eat onion rings.....but if those guys decide to come pver and smell our fries it is not our fault that we are in the same area.....
All analogy's aside...Sure, we may make a mistake and up a mission that may cross over a furball....but as I said, we would not jump into it...unless you engage us.
Likewise to your question......I can turn that around as well....you can dogfight anywhere.....especially the ONE arena set up for it....the DA....why the AvA?

Raptor 33

[Tiger]

Originally posted by dedalos
Or, he went to the same restaurant he has been going to for years to eat hi burger and fries and some squeaker got in the kitchen and threw them in the garbage.  Then said squeaker tells him to STFU eat the onion rings that were left or leave the restaurant.

 

That analgy would only apply if he was HiTech himself and changed the coad of the game.

[raptor33]

Yes tiger......an analogy is only usable if all things are equal....I tried to decipher what he was trying to say, buit once again, it did not directly relate to the two sides of the debate equally. Again, it supported his point, but was not usable to the overall situation....so it was useless.

[gusman]

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya

[humble]

My question/comment at the start had nothing to do with your goals or flying style...simply your interaction with the AvA as a whole. It's obvious that you guys have made an effort to introduce yourselfs, explain a bit about "who" you are and articulate your methods of operation. All in all I think you've done a reasonable job.

Accordingly I felt (and still feel) that simply putting issues like this out on the table is a preferred course of action. If we look at the realities last week you guys couldnt muster enough "clear air" to get organized and rolling...in effect you were more or less fighting out of your own ack much of the night. Fast forwarding to this week you employed a better operational plan vs a far weaker "foe"...

I think the core issue here is pretty simple. Many of the AvA regulars (of which I'm not really one) have a combination of traits that are often contradictory from an outsiders view. However it really does make some sense overall...

1st and formost is the "fair fight" doctrine...

Normally this is primarily "side balance" driven. However it also can go to plane choice etc. A more seasoned pilot will often take a "lessor" ride when numbers are low. While "1 on 1's" are not always sacrosanct most dont want to be the 3rd or 4th guy on a lone bogie.

So if we view this from a squad oriented mission perspective it applies as follows.

If we look at the 71st we've put up some of the largest fighter sweeps ever in AH (a few 70+ jug sweeps)...on the rare occasions we muster the guys we'll normally get 50 for sure. If we encounter cons we break of an appropriate number...

A single get 2 of us...thats normally it 2 gets 3-5. 3-4 get 6-10...

Is it "fair"...hell no, but normally its a fighting chance. Now the flip is if we are actually running a mission then often 2, 3 or even 4 get just 1...often me or bat or another decent stick who's job is to keep em buzy...

I think this was TC's point. Hey I'm a guy, if your mission is to go bomb dirt then split of a guy or two to slow me down. If your dropping 4 or 5 on me then your really not doing what you say.

If we went to how squads work we'll again use the 71st. We probably could but 40 guys or more in the AvA...and we'd have to run the "A" flight vs "B" or similiar....we couldnt put all of us in.

Sadly the current numbers may make you guys a challenge to the "ecosystem" at times. Not always but at times...

My request is that you guys keep that fact in mind as you conduct your "ops"...and to the devgree you can try and tailor those ops to the current realities.

[raptor33]

Fair enough.
By the way, on Monday night we had 3 fighter groups of two.....we did our best, for the sake of the mission and survival to dispatch only ONE group (two fighters) per con.....but waited until the cons were nearing range of our buffs. We did not drop all of our fighters on the first con that we had color on.
I emphasize...we tried. Unfortunately, I for one had yet to fly the p51d and I was not prepared for the blackout I experienced....so my wingman was left alone as he engaged....sop another fighter took my place...and I did not get back to replace him with HIS wingman...and well, all of a sudden, mass chaos.
This is part of the learning curve and we will leave it to you to either be patient, or let it irk you...
But in no way are we going to bolt out of the arena becuase we are not up to speed....we will continue to learn and grow....and one day earn your respect...and if we dont earn your respect, we will continue on as we were anyway.
All in all, I believe we have made it clear that we are in the AvA to enjoy ourselves and we are not looking to impede on your fun....but it may happen as we are learning....
Raptor

[TimRas]

Originally posted by lutrel
But, just for the record, I do not care what you think of us..I do not care how..I do not care how...I do not care that you are too lazy..and I do not care if you think..

Yep, I think you really don't care

Originally posted by raptor33
I live in NY, grew up in the Bronx...saw two friends shot to death, and had a gun pulled on me more than once during my childhood. Not proud of it....but it grew hair on my chest at an early age. Wont even get into my time at ground zero doing rescue and recovery for 3 straight days 12 hours on 8 hours off...

Let me guess, you were in the CIA, were an F-16 pilot and shot down two enemy aircraft , owned a P-51, and have two PhDs, have bitten by
a scorpion, have a brain tumour, and you don't have the VOSS seal of approval yet ?

[raptor33]

Originally posted by TimRas
Yep, I think you really don't care


Let me guess, you were in the CIA, were an F-16 pilot and shot down two enemy aircraft , owned a P-51, and have two PhDs, have bitten by
a scorpion, have a brain tumour, and you don't have the VOSS seal of approval yet ?

Nope TimAss....simply grew up in the Bronx. Never flew for the USAF, never saw military action....heck, had a pretty boring life if you ask me. Have a beautiful wife, 2 great boys...one in college at SUNY Buffalo and the other a senior in HS....recruited to play lacrosse at Hofstra...like to play golf....but no....no CIA, FBI....heck, the closest I came was when I was audited by the IRS. As for the brain tumor...not me.....but sadly, my cousins were left without a father due to one. Glad you can find humor in something like that.

Raptor33

[scottydawg]

Originally posted by Tiger
OK... very poor analagy there buddy.  You pay $15 to play a game here.  A game that envolves a few things.

1) the ability to shoot down the enemy planes/gvs
2) the ability to blow up stuff on the ground
3) the ability to caprture a base

Basically they are doign what they payed for.  He is eating his burger, fried, and drinking his shake.  

You are the guy who complains because the people behind you have a 1 year old cutting teeth who is crying and runing your fine dining experience.

I see you (and a few others) have managed to intentionally miss my point, great job.  I won't bother to draw you a picture as it wouldn't do any good.

You don't know me, so don't presume to know what kind of guy I am.

[raptor33]

I got your point Scootydrag.....but unfortunately your analogies did not apply.
Your point is...it is your sandbox and if we want to play in it, it is only appropriate that we play by your rules...and the rules that are accepted by most of the players that have been there for years. I understand what you are saying.
You dont know me either....I am not an idiot....
But using my analogy is explaining my point...it is NOT your sandbox....it is everyone's sandbox.....just because you are there first and for much longer does not mean that newcomers MUST abide by the rules you set...
But out of respect we are making it clear that we will NOT intentionally ruin your fun....but once in a while, it may happen becuase we will NOT abide by the rules you set.....we will always abide by the rules set by the sim designers....and do our best to respect your rules and try not to interfere with them.
I still dont see what the big deal is here.

[scottydawg]

Originally posted by raptor33
I got your point Scootydrag.....but unfortunately your analogies did not apply.
Your point is...it is your sandbox and if we want to play in it, it is only appropriate that we play by your rules...and the rules that are accepted by most of the players that have been there for years. I understand what you are saying.
You dont know me either....I am not an idiot....
But using my analogy is explaining my point...it is NOT your sandbox....it is everyone's sandbox.....just because you are there first and for much longer does not mean that newcomers MUST abide by the rules you set...
But out of respect we are making it clear that we will NOT intentionally ruin your fun....but once in a while, it may happen becuase we will NOT abide by the rules you set.....we will always abide by the rules set by the sim designers....and do our best to respect your rules and try not to interfere with them.
I still dont see what the big deal is here.

Not sure what's up with the grade-school name calling, hope it makes you feel good, but whatever.

They are not my rules OR my sandbox.  I never said they were. However you are right on the mark when you say "...and the rules that are accepted by most of the players that have been there for years."  This observation (and the unwritten rules of conduct) has been entirely lost in the MA, but still holds true in the Special Events arena and (to a lesser degree) in the AvA. The backlash you are so fervently railing against is what is perceived by others as a blatant disregard.  That you recognize it and acknowledge them to some degree puts you above 99% of the "new" crowd, and for that I salute you.

To be clear, you haven't ruined my fun, I haven't run across you or your squad yet, and if you did 'ruin my fun', I would simply shrug and log off, without a ch 200 wankfest or a lengthy diatribe on the boards (of course sans punctuation and grammar).

That's just my style, though.  I won't be punching any crying babies in Mickey D's like Tiger seems to think.

[dedalos]

Hey Raptor,

As the thread name says, it is about respect.  When you walk into a place you have to respect the people that maintain it.  You have to respect what they are trying to do.  You don't just through out there that it is your $15 and act like a 12 year old.  You have to have respect towards people in general and display more respect for the people providing you with the AvA.  Your sand box their sand box is irrelevant.  The AvA is possible because of the people maintaining it and the people that kept it alive by going there.  You guy have no respect so I dont think you will get what I am saying.

Nice back pedaling btw

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by raptor33

But using my analogy is explaining my point...it is NOT your sandbox....it is everyone's sandbox.....just because you are there first and for much longer does not mean that newcomers MUST abide by the rules you set...
But out of respect we are making it clear that we will NOT intentionally ruin your fun....but once in a while, it may happen becuase we will NOT abide by the rules you set.....we will always abide by the rules set by the sim designers....and do our best to respect your rules and try not to interfere with them.
I still dont see what the big deal is here.

raptor33,
I see where you are saying it is not a particular group of players on personal arena, it is everyone's arena........and this is absolutely true.

but I posted earlier, and I will post it again......

HTC has the following: Arena Moderators, Arena CM Staff members ( mainly for Scenario's, Snapshots, FSO's, KOTH tournaments, AHERL, etc........... but these CM Staff members also design and set/reset arenas.

Aces High has, the AH SKinner Team, AH Terrains Team, also has Messageboard moderators

now,  Aces High / HTC has the AH Trainers Corp ( Training Staff ) this staff has complete rule and say so for anything and everything that happens in the Training Arena........that is indeed the Training Staff's sandbox, and HTC will back them til the earth ends

Also, the AvsA Arena, has basically the same setup as the Training Arena and staff. The AvsA has AvsA Staff......and this is their "sandbox" and they set the weekly matchups, terrains, code of ethics/morals/ moderating / side balancing request and anything else what have you.......and HTC will back these Volunteer AvsA Staff members  til the earth ends, just the same....

They let the CM Staff/ Training Staff / AvsA Staff have complete control and design over all arenas ( SEA, TA, AvsA ) except the following: EWA, MWA, LWA, DA  arena types.......
so with that said again: you are saying you will fly and abide by the rules set forth and/or requested by the designers of the AvsA which is the AvsA Staff....... this is very good to hear, and am glad you and the Avengers ( I take it you are speaking on behalf of your squad ) are working toward that goal.

now lets move on. When you guys have your mission nights. which I do believe are Tuesdays and Thrusdays? ( correct me if I am wrong about the dates )..IF you request for some opposition or some people flying defense. I suggest you post the time you plan to roll your mission..nothing more, just the time.......no need to post any pre scouting you might do, or post what you are going to do in your mission.....

and I do believe any that are logged on can accomodate your request for opposition. If you do not request any oppostion....then go as you may off on a particular part of the map and do your thing..........

IF you want to practice this squad flying / wing tactics,  mission practice, then  just so you know: you can do this in just about any arena  MA's, AvsA, TA, DA and keep to yourself and practice working as a team....


look forward to seeing you Avengers in the Skkies of Aces High......