Author Topic: What is a Militia?  (Read 18521 times)

Offline Arlo

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #675 on: January 02, 2008, 09:14:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Just pointing out that the 1897 trench (or the riot version) is not an NFA firearm. Bingolong beat me to the post though; not suprising. He seems entranced with the NFA although it has nothing to do with the 2nd and is actually correctly seen as a part of the tax code.

The 1897's do sometimes exhibit a rather disconcerting trait of going off now and then without anything touching the trigger if you slam the action closed.

Pays to be very careful where you are pointing it when you work the action.


Dad had a Spanish made pump that did that. I developed that habit at a young age as a result.

I should participate in the gun threads that aren't centered around debating the 2nd more. It's not like I've got tons of stories but I can relate.

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #676 on: January 02, 2008, 09:43:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Bingolong, before you :aok  me, please understand that when I posted

"The idea that short barreled shotguns (including pistol length; google Lemat revolver) are NOT historic US military weapons is laughable. "

that means I find the US V Miller SCOTUS decision an incorrect ruling that is so wrong in so many ways I can only laugh at its absurdity.

Arlo, the 1897 Trench guns had "legal" barrels of over 18". Most were 20" but some were 18's. I have an 1897 riot gun with an 18"; used by the Federal Reserve until about 1970 and then sold off as surplus for $10. My dad should've bought ten of them. Anyway, the WW1 trench guns would not have been covered by the NFA. I'm sure Bingolong will be quick to point that out.

The entire militia aspect of the 2nd is misunderstood by those who don't think the 2nd is an individual right. A little study into the writings of the Founders and into the actual history of the amendment should be enough to set the SC on a course to settle this once and for all as an individual right.


Thats just the point toad, you and laz find. Thats not what the courts find except 1. I have posted  ad nauseam  the laws of the militia and cases that back it up..

Offline Bingolong

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« Reply #677 on: January 02, 2008, 09:53:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Just pointing out that the 1897 trench (or the riot version) is not an NFA firearm. Bingolong beat me to the post though; not suprising. He seems entranced with the NFA although it has nothing to do with the 2nd and is actually correctly seen as a part of the tax code.

The 1897's do sometimes exhibit a rather disconcerting trait of going off now and then without anything touching the trigger if you slam the action closed.

Pays to be very careful where you are pointing it when you work the action.


I does have something to do with the 2nd where miller is concerned.

Offline Toad

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #678 on: January 02, 2008, 09:55:43 PM »
I have faith that this court ruling will find for individual rights.

I believe this because, as I said, any honest man of normal intelligence that actually reads the writings of the men that wrote the Constitution, that actually reads the history of the 2nd amendment as it was debated and finally approved, that actually studies the Bill of Rights as a whole can come to no other conclusion except that the 2nd delineates an individual right.

Oh, yeah... and one other thing. Unlike Miller, in this case BOTH sides of the argument will be heard.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 09:58:30 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #679 on: January 02, 2008, 09:56:10 PM »
It was tax laws that convicted Capone. Not tax laws covering "tommygun taxes," obviously ..... but .....

Offline Toad

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« Reply #680 on: January 02, 2008, 09:57:32 PM »
The NFA is about excise taxes; end of story Bingolong.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #681 on: January 02, 2008, 09:58:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The NFA is about excise taxes; end of story Bingolong.



and registration

Offline Toad

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« Reply #682 on: January 02, 2008, 10:04:08 PM »
Ha! The only reason you have to register is so they can make sure you pay the taxes.

It's not about the 2nd as I'm sure you would agree; that is the main point.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #683 on: January 02, 2008, 10:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I have faith that this court ruling will find for individual rights.

I believe this because, as I said, any honest man of normal intelligence that actually reads the writings of the men that wrote the Constitution, that actually reads the history of the 2nd amendment as it was debated and finally approved, that actually studies the Bill of Rights as a whole can come to no other conclusion except that the 2nd delineates an individual right.


I understand that's your firm conviction but it comes across as rather condenscending and egotistical. If it was as simple as you claim and all it takes is "honesty, normal intelligence and familiarity with the U.S. constitution and the writings of those who penned and ratified it" (attempting to, as eloquently as possible, paraphrase your position) then you appear to present yourself as superior, regarding those qualifiers, to everyone that's worn the robes of a Supreme Court justice for over a century and had to deal with, debate, and rule on that article.

Emotionally tied or opposed to your views and desires, I cannot justify that much hubris cushioning my own opinion.

Offline Toad

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #684 on: January 02, 2008, 10:10:44 PM »
Thanks, Nash.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #685 on: January 02, 2008, 10:12:54 PM »
You're welcome, Laz. :D

Offline Toad

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« Reply #686 on: January 02, 2008, 10:28:36 PM »
You honor me too much. I've met Laz and spent quite a bit of time with him at a Con. I hold him in high regard and count him amongst the more honest and perceptive individuals I know. Certainly far more so than most that post here.

As for your SC justices. Miller was a travesty of justice, with many obvious flaws. A short barreled shotgun NOT an historic US military arm? Come now.


US v Emerson in 2001 said it quite plainly.

Quote
We find that the history of the Second Amendment
reinforces the plain meaning of its text, namely that it protects
individual Americans in their right to keep and bear arms whether or not
they are a member of a select militia or performing active military
service or training.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bingolong

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What is a Militia?
« Reply #687 on: January 02, 2008, 10:32:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You honor me too much. I've met Laz and spent quite a bit of time with him at a Con. I hold him in high regard and count him amongst the more honest and perceptive individuals I know. Certainly far more so than most that post here.

As for your SC justices. Miller was a travesty of justice, with many obvious flaws. A short barreled shotgun NOT an historic US military arm? Come now.


US v Emerson in 2001 said it quite plainly.


The section under consideration, in our bill of rights, was
adopted in reference to these historical facts, and in this point
of view its language is most appropriate and expressive.  Its words
are, "the free white men of this state have a right to keep and
bear arms for their common defence." It, to be sure, asserts the
right much more broadly than the statute of William & Mary.  For
the right there asserted is subject to the disabilities contained
in the act of Charles II.  There, lords and esquires, and their
sons, and persons whose yearly income from land amounted to 100
pounds, were of suitable condition to keep arms.  But, with us,
every free white man is of suitable condition, and, therefore,
every free white man may keep and bear arms. But to keep and bear
arms for what?  If the history of the subject had left in doubt the
object for which the right is secured, the words that are employed
must completely remove that doubt.  It is declared that they may
keep and bear arms for their common defence.  The word "common,"
here used, means, according to Webster: 1. Belonging equally to
more than one, or to many indefinitely. 2. Belonging to the public.
3. General. 4. Universal. 5. Public.

The free white men may keep arms to protect the public
liberty, to keep in awe those who are in power, and to maintain the
supremacy of the laws and the constitution.  The words "bear arms,"
too, have reference to their military use, and were not employed to
mean wearing them about the person as part of the dress.  As the
object for which the right to keep and bear arms is secured is of
general and public nature, to be exercised by the people in a body,
for their common defence, so the arms the right to keep which is
secured are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and
that constitute the ordinary military equipment.  If the citizens
have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best
possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by
those in authority.  They need not, for such a purpose, the use of
those weapons which are usually employed in private broils, and
which are efficient only in the hands of the robber and the
assassin.  These weapons would be useless in war.  They could not
be employed advantageously in the common defence of the citizens.
The right to keep and bear them is not, therefore, secured by the
constitution.
Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 11:28:58 PM by Bingolong »

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #688 on: January 02, 2008, 10:45:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You "honor" me too much. I've met Laz and spent quite a bit of time with him at a Con. I hold him in high regard and count him amongst the more honest and perceptive individuals I know. Certainly far more so than most that post here.

 


Not like your Nash confusion is the worst insult I've ever heard. Guess I would actually have to understand the panty-wadding behind it to sympathize. Same can well be said about whether someone is or isn't a fan of a particular SCJ and whether it's based on emotion or logic. And .... well .... regarding Laz, I suppose perception really is one's reality bubble. Got nothing personal against the guy but I've not seen anything inspiring me to be his groupie or fanboy and I've certainly recognized his virtual penchant for imagining an argument into being. Maybe he avoids ADD better in person. I know I do. ;) *ShruG* :D

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #689 on: January 03, 2008, 08:51:50 AM »
thanks toad..   great conversations.  

arlo..  sorry I upset you.   but..  this thing is getting a little far afield here.   Bsd pretty much seen it..  we try to argue one point and when you and bingie start to lose (you more than him) you go off on a tangent and claim victim status and that your opponents are getting angry at you personally

Never met you.   You seem a little flighty tho.

Bsd asked you to stick to the point..   the point in question was what you thought "collective rights" meant.. it is jibberish and it SEEMS that you admitted that it meant nothing more than each and every citizen.. or... another way of saying individual rights.

You then talked of the constitution being a "living document" and it SEEMS that you agree that the amendment process is the real mechanism for change and not judge activism.. that a judge is only allowed to interpret intent?

you jump to cars.   there are no laws stopping you from buying a car.   You do not have to register it and you can drive it without a licence and as fast as you want..  so long as it is on private property... many many cars have lived out their lives (or ended em) in such a manner.. cars are not a good example.. I am sure the founders would be happy with the way things are so far as cars.

So..  what are we really talking about?   do either you or bingie feel that the DC law is just and not an infringment?    

It is a ban.   you are good with this?  that is why we will not come to an agreement... any ruling that said it was fine for a city to ban guns is no "sensible" gun law.. or do you not agree?

I think you could understand why I am a little confused with yours and bingies opinion and what it means to me..   you both portray yourselves as "sensible" gun owners and profess to believe in the right of Americans to own firearms but...

I can't help wondering what guns I own today you would say I couldn't... I can't help wondering what new law that takes away guns I already own that you would find offensive.   It seems that no ban would be too great for you if you are alright with the DC one.

So tell us.... what gun laws do you think are "sensible" ones and why?

lazs