190 Series Vs. P38 Series

[stephen]

Sorry it took so long to reply was tied up, but to touch on what several fellows have said, I naturaly assumed that by "HI" we would be talking co alt AND E,

Even if this was confusing, and even if both aircraft where equal by date of introduction, the 190 is able to engage or disingage at will. No p38 can stay in a dive with a 190 to the extreme's its capable of,...without compressing, and lossing control in pitch.
This of course is if the both pilots are of loosly the same skill level, and the 190 doesnt allow the 38 into firing range as they are diving.

That said, if both late war variants where to engage on equal terms,"i.e. clean merge with no HO'ing"  im sorry to say the 190 has the 38 in alot of areas that count, not the least of which is pure blistering speed.
I prefr to let 38's blow what E they have musterd in a hi speed  turn, extend at full wep, and pull into the vertical, letting the p38 "who is positive he has better control in the vertical" follow me up until he starts wallowing.
After that its anyones game, though I wouldnt try this in anything but my 190D-9, the other varients I dont waste much time flying.

Oh yeh dont try this at anything under 1.5, as the 38 is a monster pointed straight up,be smooth,and use rudder at the top, if the E diffrence is big enough the 38 will falter 1st.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Widewing
A little comparison data from actual testing:

25% fuel, zero burn. 190A-5 with just two cannon.

Best turn radius, full flaps and WEP.
190A-5: 601.6 feet
P-38J: 598.4 feet

Note that the 190A-5 cannot get flaps out at all without either reducing power or climbing. Meanwhile, the P-38 can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph. The 190 won't survive long enough to get flaps out.

Climb, time from dead stop on runway to 5k and 10k. Yak-9U thrown in for reference.
190A-5: 1:35.79 to 5k / 3:01.44 to 10k
P-38J: 1:29.98 to 5k / 2:51.91 to 10k
Yak-9U: 1:32.16 to 5k / 2:54.56 to 10k

Acceleration, from 150 mph to 300 mph at 100 feet ASL.
190A-5: 49.91 seconds
P-38J: 45.31 seconds
Yak-9U: 44.37 seconds

My regards,

Widewing

widewing........i'm only asking, to learn..not questioning your numbers.......but with the difference in the above mentioned turn radius, it seems close enough that it would come down to pilot skill? or did you slow the fw down enough to get the flaps out?
 also, i've yet to come across an FW driver that'll actually even ATTEMPT to turnfight.....regardless of what i'm in. they almost ALWAYS kill me as they're generally much higher than i am.....it seems that no matter how hi i go, i find them above me.......me at 5k, them 8-12k....me 15k, them over 20k.....i don't like wasting time to climb that high.........if i DO find one co-alt, or a bit lower, they almost ALWAYS extend(read: run) then turn back and try to HO..if they miss, the continue, and try again.........

based on this, i'd make the asumption that if i were in the FW, u in any version of the 38, you'd hand my arse back to me. switch planes....and i think the same result.
 someday i need to find time to get into TA or DA to learn more, but my time is so limited anymore that i simply go to the MA's for the furballs.

<>

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by stephen
Sorry it took so long to reply was tied up, but to touch on what several fellows have said, I naturaly assumed that by "HI" we would be talking co alt AND E,

Even if this was confusing, and even if both aircraft where equal by date of introduction, the 190 is able to engage or disingage at will. No p38 can stay in a dive with a 190 to the extreme's its capable of,...without compressing, and lossing control in pitch.
This of course is if the both pilots are of loosly the same skill level, and the 190 doesnt allow the 38 into firing range as they are diving.

That said, if both late war variants where to engage on equal terms,"i.e. clean merge with no HO'ing"  im sorry to say the 190 has the 38 in alot of areas that count, not the least of which is pure blistering speed.
I prefr to let 38's blow what E they have musterd in a hi speed  turn, extend at full wep, and pull into the vertical, letting the p38 "who is positive he has better control in the vertical" follow me up until he starts wallowing.
After that its anyones game, though I wouldnt try this in anything but my 190D-9, the other varients I dont waste much time flying.

Oh yeh dont try this at anything under 1.5, as the 38 is a monster pointed straight up,be smooth,and use rudder at the top, if the E diffrence is big enough the 38 will falter 1st.

A 38L and 190D9 meet co alt and Co E and you are suggesting the top speed of the 190D9 is what compared to the 38L?

Seems like the top speed for the 38L is 414 and the 190D9 is 408.

Seems kinda comparable.  Nothing blistering about it unless the D9 is going away and downhill.

[hubsonfire]

CAP, I think a key number that's missing is the time required to make that complete revolution.

Stephen, you're making almost no sense at all.

[stephen]

lol you are a killer, and your looking at data to your own dismay my friend, fly a 190d9 for a couple years, and after youve merged with the grand majority of 38 pilots throughout that time tell me im not making sense....

the 190 has more wep, a higher speed at low alt"where we fly the most" better hi speed handling, is more responsive to control inputs, and climbs better, lol not making sense, do you ever fly the Dora?

its the diffrence bettween a viper and a porshe, the viper might be big and heavy and fast, but it just isnt made to zip around in the same plane...
read less/fly ,more...argument over.

[TUXC]

Originally posted by Guppy35
A 38L and 190D9 meet co alt and Co E and you are suggesting the top speed of the 190D9 is what compared to the 38L?

Seems like the top speed for the 38L is 414 and the 190D9 is 408.

Seems kinda comparable.  Nothing blistering about it unless the D9 is going away and downhill.

Isn't top speed of the D9 around 435-440? 408 sounds more like a 190A. Below 20k 190d has a decent speed advantage over 38.

http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php?p1=p38l&p2=190a5&p3=190d9

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by stephen
lol you are a killer, and your looking at data to your own dismay my friend, fly a 190d9 for a couple years, and after youve merged with the grand majority of 38 pilots throughout that time tell me im not making sense....

the 190 has more wep, a higher speed at low alt"where we fly the most" better hi speed handling, is more responsive to control inputs, and climbs better, lol not making sense, do you ever fly the Dora?

its the diffrence bettween a viper and a porshe, the viper might be big and heavy and fast, but it just isnt made to zip around in the same plane...
read less/fly ,more...argument over.

You're not making sense...or rather I should say that you are incorrect.  If you like, I can show you.


ack-ack

[Widewing]

Originally posted by CAP1
widewing........i'm only asking, to learn..not questioning your numbers.......but with the difference in the above mentioned turn radius, it seems close enough that it would come down to pilot skill? or did you slow the fw down enough to get the flaps out?
 also, i've yet to come across an FW driver that'll actually even ATTEMPT to turnfight.....regardless of what i'm in. they almost ALWAYS kill me as they're generally much higher than i am.....it seems that no matter how hi i go, i find them above me.......me at 5k, them 8-12k....me 15k, them over 20k.....i don't like wasting time to climb that high.........if i DO find one co-alt, or a bit lower, they almost ALWAYS extend(read: run) then turn back and try to HO..if they miss, the continue, and try again.........

based on this, i'd make the asumption that if i were in the FW, u in any version of the 38, you'd hand my arse back to me. switch planes....and i think the same result.
 someday i need to find time to get into TA or DA to learn more, but my time is so limited anymore that i simply go to the MA's for the furballs.

<>

The problem with flaps in a 190 is you have to get extremely slow to get them out. In the meanwhile, you have a turn radius comparable to a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even getting them out is no bargain. The best of the 190s (in terms of turning), with minimal fuel and only two cannon still can do no better than a 1,200 ft turning circle with full flaps. When pushed that hard, the 190 will snap spin without much provocation. As it is, you can't get the flaps all the way out unless you get the nose quite high, or pull off power. Believe me, you're long dead by that point. Also, the 190D-9, A-8, and F-8 have turn radii in excess of 700 feet (1,400 ft circle) even with full flaps. That's medium bomber territory...  Indeed, the B-25C has a turn radius virtually identical to the Dora.

Don't get me wrong, you can do a lot with the 190s. I've flown them this tour some, going 23/2, with one loss due to a collision with a Seafire and another to being picked by Waffle's 262 while beating up several La-7s. 190 Antons, the Dora and Ta 152 require discipline and good SA. You have to recognize when it's time to unload and re-merge. You have to avoid getting too slow. You have to think about what you want to do, rather than just dive in and hope for the best. You also have to have the good sense to recognize that you will not get home very often if you don't avoid the traps and don't fight to the type's strengths.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by TUXC
Isn't top speed of the D9 around 435-440? 408 sounds more like a 190A. Below 20k 190d has a decent speed advantage over 38.

http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php?p1=p38l&p2=190a5&p3=190d9

The Dora manages about 424 to 426 depending upon load. Add a centerline rack and it drops to around 418 mph. Down at 10k, the Dora can reach 405 mph.

In comparison, the A-5 and A-8 can do about 403 mph at 20k, 366 mph at 10k.

My regards,

Widewing

[stephen]

Ack Ack dont take it personaly, the p38 is simply an inferior ride, your argument is moot unless you can prove to me that the 38 can dictate the fight, which it obviuosly can not unless the 190d9 pilot is caught with his pants down low and slow
lol I take much pleasure from diving to low alt away from 38's, waiting for them to turn, then going over the top to hit them as they try to face me.

Its a lumbering frieght train against any decent pilot, give up the ghost..., co alt the 190d9 will run away if hes in danger, and theres nothing a lightning pilot can do but spray and pray in disgust.

we arent talking about a one on one, because like in war time, its up to the pilot if he wants to engage or not, and if the 190 does want to make a couple of passes,  than he will allways have the ability to run away at low alt.

Its not hard just admit it, the 190D9 hands down is a better plane,or if thats to hard to swallow try admiting at-least that its the most survivable of the two,
Oh yeh, the 190's game is not in the turn, and it never has been, simply put a 38 rolls slow, and the 190 rolls fast, in fact the 38 is the easiest A/C to scissor in a 190 as the roll rate is so cruddy.

"Search your feelings Luke, and you will know it to be true".....

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by stephen

we arent talking about a one on one,

Yeah, actually, that's exactly what's being discussed. Read more.

[stephen]

so theres basicly a gun to the 190's head, and he must fight, ok.....

so what are the rules co alt and co E? head on pass? 38 is being chased, or 190?

ok let me make it even more simple.

I will kill 72% of the pilots in this game 2 out of three times in a co alt merge in my 190d9 vs a 38L at medium alt "below 15k".
Theres no convincing you obviously, and ill accept that, but you know when your in that 38 and a decent 190 stick is coming head on that one of two things are gonna happen, hes gonna run away from you or your gonna die, last post on the subject

[Fianna]

Originally posted by stephen
hes gonna run away from you

That's the only chance he's got to survive. Just like your only chance of surviving in this thread is to run away.

[Spiked]

stephen ... I believe it has been offered for you to meet one of the better 38 pilots (take your pick ... 4 or 5 have posted in this thread I think).

I for one would love to hear the outcome .... and would relish to see the video of the fight/fights.  I happen to be fairly cruddy in both (I do enjoy flying em) ... but in the interest of learning urge you to take up the challange.

You seen confident enough ... give it a go.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by stephen
so theres basicly a gun to the 190's head, and he must fight, ok.....

so what are the rules co alt and co E? head on pass? 38 is being chased, or 190?

ok let me make it even more simple.

I will kill 72% of the pilots in this game 2 out of three times in a co alt merge in my 190d9 vs a 38L at medium alt "below 15k".
Theres no convincing you obviously, and ill accept that, but you know when your in that 38 and a decent 190 stick is coming head on that one of two things are gonna happen, hes gonna run away from you or he's gonna die, last post on the subject

So your position is you can run away in your D9? And that makes it superior?

When I'm in a P-38, and I meet a 190, I figure a decent stick will fight, and the rest of them will run. If he's a decent stick, he should beat me because I'm not even average. But when I'm flying on a regular basis, I don't do too bad against the 190.

Oh, yeah, by the way, looking at your posts, it seems you need spell checker, desperately.