mn38

[republic]

Originally posted by humble
From what I saw the sides were grossly imbalanced...

Here's my view...

The goons died for a couple of reasons...

1) the 109's were right with the goons. From thrilla's view he's just flying to the action, he cant see the icons till 2.5.

2) The goons had no combat spacing and were poorly flown. He got both goons in 1 pass with the 2nd being an immediate transition. Had the goons had proper spacing, flown any decent evasives at all and reacted to the threat the likely hood is one might have survived.

3) there was a 2nd spitty right there, even if thrilla hadnt have upped the other spit avoided a zeke and was seperately inbound and would have killed the goons (IMO) just as easily.

This was poor planning and tactics and it appeared that you were relying on your numbers and local superiority. Had the 109's and goons maintained proper combat spacingf then thrilla would have been engaged well before he reached the C-47's.

Or...he knew right where the C-47's where because he just saw them moments before he swapped.

I thought this discussion was over already?

Lets talk about how to stop this from happening again, not arguing about who did what to whom.

[thrila]

republic do you even read my posts?  I wasn't at that base.  The argument of 'who did what to whom' is critical because you are acusing me of doing something i did not.  Unless you can provide evidence of course, which you can't- because i wasn't there.    Perhaps you couls ask truekill, he was with you and had filmed.  At no point during the course of the evening was in the vicinity of the said base on the side of the axis.

You need to accept that there was no malice in my side switching, in fact the exact opposite.

[republic]

Originally posted by thrila

You need to accept that there was no malice in my side switching, in fact the exact opposite.

Would you at least concede that it might have looked VERY suspicious from our point of view?



Thus, imo, the need to have a swap timer.  So at the very least when someone swaps they are committed for 24 hours to that particular side.

I really would like to know if someone is keeping track of which side generally is outnumbered.  I'm sure that the Allies feel they are always outnumbered because the Axis generally feels that way too.  Some real numbers would be handy.

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by republic
Or...he knew right where the C-47's where because he just saw them moments before he swapped.

I thought this discussion was over already?

Lets talk about how to stop this from happening again, not arguing about who did what to whom.

It's only fair, since people are questioning his integrity, that he is given the full benefit of the doubt. We already have had enough flames', accusations, and chest thumping in the last week, than we've had in any whole year of the AvA forums' alltogether.

Milkrunning and hoarding have already driven some players' out; the AvA can't really afford to lose many more, IMHO. This is everyones' sandbox, because without people, There is no AvA.

[E25280]

Originally posted by republic
At the very least 24 hours sounds like a good number.  What say ye AvA community?

No.

Sounds like a BAD idea to me.

Have trouble with a hangnail?  Let's cut off the hand so it won't be a problem anymore.

Over-reaction to what has turned out to be a nearly non-existent problem (at the very least non-existent in the case that brought the subject up).


How much fun do you think you will be having when the numbers happen to be 30 vs 2 an no one can switch to even the sides?  Zip, zero, zilch.

Bad idea.  Bad bad bad idea.

[Chapel]

Originally posted by 1Duke1
Actually, what I'd like to see is the Commanders have a little more control over their people.  If one side has a gross inbalance, then use some of the extras to fly supply missions.  

Two or three extra fighters is all that should be needed to take a base, not 10-12.  Take those extra dudes and have them fly supply missions to bring their bases back up to 100%.  

Now they shouldn't require them to do that all night, spread out the supply missions among everyone until the numbers even out, and then let them have at it.  It's all about force management.

As Allied commander, I gotta point out that in no way whatsoever do I have any "Control" over any pilots flying allied. People will do what they want, when they want, regardless of what I have to say.

I can however influence and attempt to persuade, rally, and coerce pilots into doing something I want. =)
I have on countless times asked pilots to do one thing or another, only to either be ignored, or just plain not noticed.

It's VERY difficult to get someone to do something they don't want to do. All I can do is ask in as nice a way as I can for help. But it's also all about fun. Numbers fluctuate BOTH ways. Outnumbering always rights itself at some point or another. It's just the nature of this game, or any game like this.

We just have to act with integrity and do what each of us thinks is right. Because there's a LOT of ways to unscrupulously ruin this setup. I have to believe though, HAVE to believe, that most - if not ALL pilots act in a way that's not grossly unfair and imature.

For the record, I support a 24hr time change, but I also have to say I those pilots willing to forego aliegence and help balance sides.

[VonMessa]

Originally posted by Oldman731
Hmmmm.

Do you think perhaps you're taking this setup just a bit too seriously?  We aren't awarding cash prizes to the winning team, nor are we executing the families of the losers.  Unless you're staff, you are restricted to one side's BBS forums, whether you switch sides or not.  If there's someone who is childish enough to play secret agent and report the best laid plans of mice and men to the enemy....how in the world is that a big enough deal to get people this upset?  More:  how can you find honest satisfaction in swarming the other side because you have 2-1 odds?

This setup has been running very well, drawing in new folks, and most everyone has been having a good time - and all the while, there have been people switching sides to even the numbers and make for a better contest.  All of them do it knowing that they have forfeited their chance to collect medals or awards, but they do it in hopes of improving the experience for everyone.  Classifying their behavior as "garbage" is grossly unfair.

Come on, folks.  It's a war game, not a real war.

- oldman

I know where you live..      

but seriously......

I understand that it is not real, but the time I invest in the immersion and gameplay IS.  It's not even about my $15, either.

I guess the point is about when well laid plans are foiled when someone switches sides to drop a big steaming  one on them.  There are a few times when the switch was VERY convenient.  I, personally, don't want to know THEIR plans either.  It ruins the strategy of it.  Moreover, how many of the new people that have been wooed  here are going to stay if their plans are frustrated by such behavior on a routine basis?

I don't need to name names, nor do I need film.   A good definition of integrity is "how an individual behaves or acts when they think that nobody else is watching them".  These folks know who they are.  This is the "garbage" I refer to.   Switching sides to balance things out is very noble.  Doing it to get free and easy kills, captures, etc is not.

*  Aces High account   $15

* Planning a mission  15 min.

* Time flying during said mission  (up to) 1/2 hour +/-

* Arriving at mission objective to find 5 NME cons at 15-20K waiting for you, one of them being a guy you just flew a sortie with?

Garbage

[heythere]

Originally posted by VonMessa
I don't need to name names, nor do I need film.   A good definition of integrity is "how an individual behaves or acts when they think that nobody else is watching them".  These folks know who they are.  This is the "garbage" I refer to.   Switching sides to balance things out is very noble.  Doing it to get free and easy kills, captures, etc is not.  

some folks will never get that principle.   to you and to those that do.

[Grits]

Originally posted by VonMessa
Cast your lot for a side, stay there for a whole round, period.  Piss up a rope if  you or your squad choose unwisely.  Screw the numbers.  They even out from time to time and not because guys are trying to "even things out".  

If not one whole round, why even bother with having segregated forums?  Why did we need to choose a side in the first place?

Because not every person who participates in the AvA and the new War have declared one side or the other. Some prefer to have less invested in the outcome, but this does not mean they can not participate at a level less than those committed for the long haul. Why force those who choose not to throw in with one side to fly for one side anyway? I see your point, but not everyone that switches sides does so for nefarious reasons.

I guess the point is about when well laid plans are foiled when someone switches sides to drop a big steaming  one on them.  There are a few times when the switch was VERY convenient.  I, personally, don't want to know THEIR plans either.  It ruins the strategy of it.  Moreover, how many of the new people that have been wooed  here are going to stay if their plans are frustrated by such behavior on a routine basis?

I don't need to name names, nor do I need film.   A good definition of integrity is "how an individual behaves or acts when they think that nobody else is watching them".  These folks know who they are.  This is the "garbage" I refer to.   Switching sides to balance things out is very noble.  Doing it to get free and easy kills, captures, etc is not.[/B]

Another lesson on CT/AvA history. My Squad The Gunfighters, of whom Oldman is a founding member, was started for the expressed purpose of switching sides to keep things even. Its what we do, and we do it out of principle not greed for kills. We have been doing it for almost four years, and I think you will be very hard pressed to find anyone on either side of the AvA that will say we do it to spy or use side switching to any advantage. On the contrary, we by definition fly for whatever side is low in numbers, not the other way around. Ask TK or any of the other members of JG54, they may have issues with me for other reasons, but it will not be because of side switching I am confident they will say I am not a security risk. We pride ourselves on being able to switch back and forth with both sides knowing we will not blow any mishuns or give away info.

I say if you must restrict side switching, make it a couple of hours or so, not the entire scenario.

[justyy]

I havent been flying AH very long but for the most part the Squads i've dealt with in the AvA are very honorable and fly with pride and integrity. That being said maybe a few hours is better than a 24 hour lock on side switching.

[VonMessa]

a thousand words......