Author Topic: Nothing to see here, move along  (Read 5337 times)

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #120 on: February 08, 2008, 04:53:59 PM »
Hope gives one the COURAGE to strive for something better. Hope is the sense that something CAN be done, no matter how difficult. The unthinkable and the astonishing are seldom brought to pass without hope. Without hope, there's no reason to even try because you've already failed.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline moot

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« Reply #121 on: February 08, 2008, 05:10:32 PM »
:lol
The only problems that hope will solve on its own are sentimental.  You don't resolve a concrete problem with an abstract solution, which is what hope is - a feeling.  This feeling might facilitate finding and implementing the solution, but said solution could just as well be determined by simply thinking about it.

Hope is just a convenient tool in apealing to warm fuzzy tendencies in people... Determination and any other sort of drive to accomplish things are what get things done.  Hope as a solution to concrete problems is as tangible and reliable as faith.

Obama would have better credibility if he actualy suggested concise solutions to the problem he promises to adress.  You don't send a psychic or cleric to lead surgeries or stock market companies.
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Offline texasmom

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« Reply #122 on: February 08, 2008, 05:21:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Hope gives one the COURAGE to strive for something better. Hope is the sense that something CAN be done, no matter how difficult. The unthinkable and the astonishing are seldom brought to pass without hope. Without hope, there's no reason to even try because you've already failed.

Yes, that's true. It can cause the effort to succeed. I guess I can make an effort to not be so callused. :)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 06:24:11 PM by texasmom »
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Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #123 on: February 08, 2008, 05:23:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
:lol
The only problems that hope will solve on its own are sentimental.  You don't resolve a concrete problem with an abstract solution, which is what hope is - a feeling.  This feeling might facilitate finding and implementing the solution, but said solution could just as well be determined by simply thinking about it.

Hope is just a convenient tool in apealing to warm fuzzy tendencies in people... Determination and any other sort of drive to accomplish things are what get things done.  Hope as a solution to concrete problems is as tangible and reliable as faith.

Obama would have better credibility if he actualy suggested concise solutions to the problem he promises to adress.  You don't send a psychic or cleric to lead surgeries or stock market companies.
Hummm, makes sense.  Dems are all about how something makes you feel, stuff like does a particular word make you feel bad (we'll ban it)?  How about a bad grade, how does that make you feel?  We'll get rid of them.  You will feel better if we give you a handout (from other peoples pockets, not ours of course).  Does the war make you feel bad, we'll end it (and screw the long term consequences of cowardace).

Whether or not what makes you "feel" good actually works doesn't seem to enter into their equation.
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Offline AWMac

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« Reply #124 on: February 08, 2008, 05:33:51 PM »
Watch and see what happens if Hillary gets elected.  Bill would have his fingers in everything else.  

Obama won't make it near the WH.  America is not ready for that... especially someone so inexpirienced.

Romney is out now... Good ridance.

I'm thinking maybe a McCain/Huckabee Ticket.

It's not like Hillary would ask Vince Foster right?

~Touche~

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Offline mg1942

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« Reply #125 on: February 08, 2008, 05:49:35 PM »
JFK was inexperienced too. I'm still wondering how he got elected at that time:noid

Offline Charon

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« Reply #126 on: February 08, 2008, 10:56:59 PM »
Quote
LOL, if that's the best we can do for "outsiders" then lets hear it for the insiders. The issue with these guys isn't that they aren't supported by their own parties, it's that they are nut jobs and the vast majority of Americans know it.


I don't know. Paul was the only true conservative in the race, at least if you like small government, and the rule of Constitutional law. Though, these concepts have fallen out of favor even among people who brand themselves as conservative Republicans and confuse the policies of, say GWB in any way shape of form with "conservative."

Most pseudo-conservatives today just want a big Republican government, slicing up the pork and power pie to more fill their pet issues than those of the other branded political party. Managed trade that only benefits the multinational corporate shareholders. No resistance to corporate subsidies OR domestic pork. A desire to use our superpower superpowers -- even if we aren't quite super enough to absorb the economic burden (hey worked for Rome!). A willingness to give up the protections of the 4th 5th 6th and 10th Amendments to "feel" safe. An interest in what people do in their bedroom and individual bodies at the federal level. A long list of New, or neo- conservative dogma that would shock a paleo-conservative from the 1950s.

I have a feeling that in the next few years we are all going to feel the hard impact of our bipartisan big bloated out of control both sides of the same coin government from the past 16 years. And it ain't going to be pretty. I hope it's not 1929 rough though. It will probably take that though to wake people up to the alternative.

Charon
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 10:59:33 PM by Charon »

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #127 on: February 08, 2008, 11:11:24 PM »
As I said in one of the other threads:

We need a strong median third party to start smacking the heads of the Libs and Conservatives together either until they start seeing sense or their skulls crack open and their brains splooge out.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #128 on: February 08, 2008, 11:32:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
I don't know. Paul was the only true conservative in the race, at least if you like small government, and the rule of Constitutional law. Though, these concepts have fallen out of favor even among people who brand themselves as conservative Republicans and confuse the policies of, say GWB in any way shape of form with "conservative."

Most pseudo-conservatives today just want a big Republican government, slicing up the pork and power pie to more fill their pet issues than those of the other branded political party. Managed trade that only benefits the multinational corporate shareholders. No resistance to corporate subsidies OR domestic pork. A desire to use our superpower superpowers -- even if we aren't quite super enough to absorb the economic burden (hey worked for Rome!). A willingness to give up the protections of the 4th 5th 6th and 10th Amendments to "feel" safe. An interest in what people do in their bedroom and individual bodies at the federal level. A long list of New, or neo- conservative dogma that would shock a paleo-conservative from the 1950s.

I have a feeling that in the next few years we are all going to feel the hard impact of our bipartisan big bloated out of control both sides of the same coin government from the past 16 years. And it ain't going to be pretty. I hope it's not 1929 rough though. It will probably take that though to wake people up to the alternative.

Charon
There are a few things that he says that I would agree with, and the main reason Republicans lost power was their fiscal responsibility, not the war as liberals claim.  However, I don't think there's anything going on now that hasn't before.  Government has been far deeper in the corporate pocket than it is now.  In the late 1800's Congress passed laws which allowed child labor and sweatshops, they were so deep in the corporate pockets at the time.

Constitutional issues have been common since the Constitution was first written.  From the Supreme Court claiming the right to determine what's Constitutional to slavery to internment camps in WWII.  We haven't executed anyone for spying since the Rosenbergs and extreme interpretation of "freedom of speech" runs roughshod over our ability to try someone for treason (think Jane Fonda on a NV AAA gun).  If anything, we have more rights run amoke than ever before including abortion (still can't see that penumbra or emanation) and freedom of the press that allows them to print the highest government secrets with complete impunity, regardless of how it may hamper the war effort. For the first time in history we grant right to trial to illegal combatants.

IMHO, and with a few exceptions, we've expanded what constitutes a "right" to the point of insanity.  We've turned freedom of religion to freedom from religion and we can't even figure out if we need two or five different bathrooms for all of our newly discovered types of sexuality.

I haven't heard Ron Paul say anything about curbing these excesses but I do know that he's accepted both money and endorsements from the KKK and the neo-Nazi's.  He has yet to repudiate the support or return the funds.  He is not a conservative, he is an extremist.  Even that isn't the worst part.  He's absolutely and totally committed to retreating from Iraq and declaring defeat.  That I will never stomach and, even if I loved everything else about him he would never get my vote.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 11:36:00 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2008, 11:33:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
As I said in one of the other threads:

We need a strong median third party to start smacking the heads of the Libs and Conservatives together either until they start seeing sense or their skulls crack open and their brains splooge out.
This is a two-party system, get used to it.
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #130 on: February 08, 2008, 11:52:18 PM »
I don't recall any law on the books stating that there is has been always will be a two-party system in the US. The framework for the American government system didn't even establish PROVISIONS for a party system.

In fact, the only reason we HAVE a two-party system to begin with is because Jefferson and Adams didn't get along and it's all just snowballed from there. Washington specifically warned AGAINST a party system from the beginning, and it's damn well clear today WHY.

It's a part of our system of government out of TRADITION, and so entrenched that the Party Line sheeple are terrified of thinking of anything else.

And unfortunately, it's the Party Line that throws around the power.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 12:07:59 AM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2008, 12:35:05 AM »
Quote
I haven't heard Ron Paul say anything about curbing these excesses but I do know that he's accepted both money and endorsements from the KKK and the neo-Nazi's. He has yet to repudiate the support or return the funds. He is not a conservative, he is an extremist. Even that isn't the worst part. He's absolutely and totally committed to retreating from Iraq and declaring defeat. That I will never stomach and, even if I loved everything else about him he would never get my vote.


The first part, well, It's a matter of opinion whether or not those "excesses" are  excesses or if the federal govt. should be playing much of a role in promoting social conservatism. I'm probably more libertarian in this area myself, you're not and there are a range of personal opinions to the extreme on both ends. That's what constitutional amendments are for, not legislating from the bench or taking on federal powers not proscribed by law at the legislative level.

Paul's position on his contributors is not politically correct. But, as odd as it is nobody that knows him or has worked with him in congress has any doubt that they do not represent his personal views. Even the folks over at Stormfront see Paul as not a true believer and a lesser of 3 evils at best. Paul's no Trent Lott or Robert Byrd.

As for retreating from Iraq. We are trying to solve a 4th Generation conflict with a 3rd generation war fighting model. We are hoping that the surge works, and that it is not just localized and that our enemies are not simply just pulling back and waiting us out. Hoping that this is as much of a military problem as it is an internal political problem set in motion by our eliminating the type of power that is ruthless enough to actually make an abortion like Iraq work in reality.

At some point we will have to leave (our continued presence only defeats our gains long term in 4th Generation warfare) and at that point we have to have achieved both a locally political and emotional/cultural victory or it's all for nothing. Perhaps Philip D. Zelikow (working for Rice) can help achieve this goal. There have been some recent shifts that show an appreciation for 4th Generation warfare that were absent since the beginning. If not, we are just wasting our time, money and blood. And we do not have an infinite supply of any of those. Without a surge of insight in the Pentagon and Washington, any troop surge is a short term band aid at best, IMO.

Charon

Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #132 on: February 09, 2008, 04:14:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
I don't recall any law on the books stating that there is has been always will be a two-party system in the US. The framework for the American government system didn't even establish PROVISIONS for a party system.

In fact, the only reason we HAVE a two-party system to begin with is because Jefferson and Adams didn't get along and it's all just snowballed from there. Washington specifically warned AGAINST a party system from the beginning, and it's damn well clear today WHY.

It's a part of our system of government out of TRADITION, and so entrenched that the Party Line sheeple are terrified of thinking of anything else.

And unfortunately, it's the Party Line that throws around the power.
It's true that the founders didn't even provide for parties, actually had anticipated having none at all but this is an example of one of very few failures in their vision.  The primary failure on their part being, of course, not eliminating slavery.  

Political parties would have developed in any case as like minded people will congregate.  In our case the spark was provided by Jefferson and Adams; however, it would have occured anyway.  I would consider it a true statement that our two party system is based, to a degree, on tradition; however, the system has proven to be amazingly flexible with both parties absorbing ideas that come from third parties.  

That said, historically, third parties are spoilers.  While, over time, some ideas do become more mainstream but a third party will never succeed primarily due to the electoral college.  

I understand the frustration that motivates the idea of third parties; however, additional parties are destabilizing and not in a good way.  Look around at the multiple party governments (Italy comes immediately to mind)and there is a long standing tradition of instability and even more ineptness than in our system.  Small fringe groups like the Greens for instance gain power far out of proportion to their constituancy because other parties must build a coalition in order to govern.  Our system has shown far more stability and progress than any other and third parties have usually worked to the detrement of all.  For instance, it is well known that Nadar's candidacy pulled votes from the party that was closest in ideology and the Democrats lost.  Perot did the same thing to the Republicans.

In any case IMO there is no possibility or need for a third party.  What really disturbs me the most though is the factionalizing.  Consider this.  Is the Libertarian Party closer to the Republican or Democrat party?  I'd say the Republican as both are based on a conservative ideology.  Now, say the country is 50/50 conservative and liberal (yes, an oversimplification but just for the sake of argument).  A significant percentage of disaffected Republicans shift to the Libertarian party because Republicans are not conservative enough which then basically guarantees LIBERALs win.  This is what happened in the last election.  Disaffected Republicans, upset that the Republican party is not conservative enough either didn't vote or went Libertarian virtually guaranteeing Liberals a win.  Where's the sense in that?  It's little more than a five year old holding their breath.  It's immature, destructive and just flat out foolish.

Overall, while the system isn't perfect it's work well.  You want to become another Italy?  Lets add a third party and while we're at it a fourth, fifth and sixth.
Mace
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2008, 09:15:11 AM »
If voting didn't go predominantly down party lines this wouldn't even be an ISSUE because *gasp* people would actually THINK about what they're voting on, not just whether it's an elephant or an bellybutton they're holding up.

And with the way the parties now are being run how DARE one vote against the party? There's a massive stigma in the government about crossing party lines, which is a large part about why the Clinton impeachment went forward, until a few Republicans finally got fed up and said "This is bullchit."

If you go back through the voting record of Congress, a significant part of the voting, especially on contentious issues, is almost perfectly split directly down the party line, with only the occasional dissenter on either side. There IS no bipartisanship in the government. It's all of the Party, by the Party, for the Party.

This is why we NEED a strong median voice. Right now the extremist whack jobs on BOTH sides are in control, and NEITHER are in the best interest of this nation (all the complaining on these boards is about the far left, but the extreme right is JUST AS DANGEROUS).

A strong middle ground would more strongly foster compromise between the two ends, and help cut a LOT of the garbage going on in DC. And that's EXACTLY why the extremes don't want it. It's DANGEROUS to their position.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2008, 09:36:49 AM »
I believe that we are so far down the road at this point that the only option is to vote the lesser of two evils.. right now.. the great evil for personal liberty and individual freedom is the peoples democratic party.

It is a bleak future we face but there is no need to rush toward it.. I will drag my feet and do my best to see that they don't get in.

I hope that it is cyclical and that people will get fed up with the nanny state soon.. the less power they have when that happens the easier it will be to pry it from their greedy socialist hands...  I do not want a bloody revolution.

lazs