Author Topic: P-47M, a perked jug.  (Read 4943 times)

Offline angelsandair

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P-47M, a perked jug.
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2008, 12:07:50 AM »
I always thought that the Tail gun had 2 or 4 20mms in it, thats what i had always heard.
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Offline skyctpn

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« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2008, 12:12:36 AM »
the 20mm was deemed inappropriate for turret use by the british.. the majority of early and mid war lancasters fielded a quad .30 caliber rear turret for defense.. later models where refitted with two .50 caliber guns in the rear turret. To my knowlege only five or six aircraft carried defensive 20mm cannon, ki-67, B-29, He-111, FW-200 ect..

Offline Gowan

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« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2008, 12:18:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by skyctpn
the 20mm was deemed inappropriate for turret use by the british.. the majority of early and mid war lancasters fielded a quad .30 caliber rear turret for defense.. later models where refitted with two .50 caliber guns in the rear turret. To my knowlege only five or six aircraft carried defensive 20mm cannon, ki-67, B-29, He-111[/b], FW-200 ect..



all the more reason why we need the Heinkel!!!

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2008, 12:24:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by skyctpn
the 20mm was deemed inappropriate for turret use by the british.. the majority of early and mid war lancasters fielded a quad .30 caliber rear turret for defense.. later models where refitted with two .50 caliber guns in the rear turret. To my knowlege only five or six aircraft carried defensive 20mm cannon, ki-67, B-29, He-111, FW-200 ect..

The Brits worked to get a Hispano in a bomber turret, but didn't get one that worked until the war was almost over and there was no time to get it into service.

Many aircraft mounted 20mm cannons as defensive weapons however.

Most Japanese bombers had one or more with the H8K2 mounting five.  Many German bombers had one or more, with one version of the Ju290 mounting thirteen of them.  The Russian Tu-2 had two fixed in the wings as did the American Helldiver.


Quote
Originally posted by Gowan
all the more reason why we need the Heinkel!!!

Why?  Any likely He111 we'd get, i.e. a Battle of Britain one, would be defended by five 7.92mm machine guns.  And the 20mm arguement could be used for almost any later German bomber and almost any Japanese bomber.
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2008, 12:30:36 AM »
A bomber that would actually plug a hole, the G4M2a, mounted a Type 99 20mm cannon in the tail and dorsal turrets and a 7.7mm machine gun in the nose and each beam position.
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Offline moot

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« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2008, 01:04:13 AM »
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Originally posted by skyctpn
So in reality that makes your reply moot then doesn't it Moot?
:lol ... err  huh?
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Offline Motherland

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« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2008, 01:22:00 AM »
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Originally posted by skyctpn
I provided a link to a source.. since your the master 109K pilot I would sudgest you find one that discredits mine.

Your source says that fuel shortages limited the time the Luftwaffe could spend in the air (which is true). If you got 90% of 109K's never left the ground out of THAT, well, you have quite a wild imagination.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2008, 01:25:49 AM »
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Originally posted by Motherland
Your source says that fuel shortages limited the time the Luftwaffe could spend in the air (which is true). If you got 90% of 109K's never left the ground out of THAT, well, you have quite a wild imagination.

Having wasted my time fully reading both of his Lancaster "sources" I have concluded that he doesn't actually read the links he posts.

1) They are never primary source documentation.

2) In the case of the Lancaster and Bf109K-4 claims, none of the three links actually backed up his claim in any way.
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Offline skyctpn

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P-47M, a perked jug.
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2008, 03:08:16 AM »
Either way you've yet to prove me wrong.

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2008, 07:06:40 AM »
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Originally posted by Gowan
all the more reason why we need the Heinkel!!!


The 20mm was a MG/FF (same cannon as in 109E-4) mounted in the nose, so it's no big threat to any fighter.

(And personally I would be dismayed if we get another helpless early war axis bomber instead of a more survivable one first)
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2008, 09:57:06 AM »
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Originally posted by skyctpn
Either way you've yet to prove me wrong.

You are the one making an unsupported claim.  You are putting the cart ahead of the horse, bucko.
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Offline skyctpn

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« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2008, 12:03:19 AM »
I provided what could be termed as a source there snookums. Find a source that counters my point and ill agree with you.. before then bucko your just making noise.

Offline angelsandair

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« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2008, 01:53:31 AM »
err back on topic though pleeze
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Widewing

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P-47M, a perked jug.
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2008, 09:30:56 AM »
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Originally posted by skyctpn
I provided what could be termed as a source there snookums. Find a source that counters my point and ill agree with you.. before then bucko your just making noise.


You like wiki as a source, I assume... From wiki here:  
"Most of the Bf 109K "Kurfürst" series saw duty. This series was the last evolution of the Bf 109. The K series was a response to the bewildering array of series, models, modification kits and factory conversions for the Bf 109, which made production and maintenance complicated and costly — something Germany could ill-afford late in the war. The RLM ordered Messerschmitt to rationalise production of the Bf 109, consolidating parts, types etc to produce a uniform, standard model with better interchangeability of parts and equipment. This was to have started in the later models of the G series, but things went in quite the opposite direction. The RLM told Messerschmitt, in effect, to try harder, and the K series was born. Work on the new version began in 1943, and the prototype was ready by the autumn of that year. Series production started in August 1944 due to delays with continuous changes and the new DB605D powerplant. Operational service began in October 1944, and large numbers — approximately 200 — were delivered to frontline units by the end of the month. By the end of January 1945, despite continuous heavy fighting, over 300 K-4s — about every fourth 109 — were listed on hand with the 1st line Luftwaffe units.


Only the K-4 saw action in numbers, with approximately 1,700 being delivered by factories before the end of hostilities."

Even with attrition, 300 were on hand in combat units at the end of January. That alone is 18% of the total manufactured available at that time. If you add the 200 delivered to combat units in October of '44, you already have 30% of the total being issued. So, even without looking at the balance of deliveries, your "90% never left the ground intact" statement is shot to hell.

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Offline 1Boner

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P-47M, a perked jug.
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2008, 09:42:09 AM »
Bucko?  :lol

Snookems?  :rofl


Step back boys, looks like the gloves are comin off on this one!!

Is this kind of extreme language allowed?

Seems kinda harsh.

Before ya know it somebodies feelings are gonna get hurt!






That is all,

Boner
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"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP