rules of engagement #1

[Hamltnblue]

What it all comes down to is----
Allied was finally winning one. Axis went into a panic attack and basically said. This is too much like the MA with everyone ho'ing and running to the ack.  We're leaving and going to the MA.
What they should have said was. Good game Allies Looking forward to the next frame.
They thought that running from their homes would stop the looting but they were wrong.
Shame Truekill didn't stick around to see what it was like to win as allied.  Guess the switch wasn't true afterall. 

[araiguma]

I'm just trying to drill down into this some more, I think it's worthwhile.  So the 190 pilot, heavy with a bomb, some might say less maneuverable and quickly loosing any advantage should maneuver to avoid the pony or he's a goober?  I'm not disagreeing with you on this but would like to see what you would do in that position (and yes every situation is slightly different).

On the other example you gave, I can see how that would push someone over the edge.  You feel disadvantaged already, are getting low on E, and then get HO'd and feel cheated.

[Hamltnblue]

You're right araiguma. The 190 pilot should take the shot.  In war if a pilot returned and said that he didn't take a shot because it was a HO, I think he should be shot on the spot. To not take the shot just allows the con to live another day and kill your buddy.
You strap yourself into a plane with half a dozen machine guns and point them towards me or anyone else, don't be surprised if we shoot first.

[captain1ma]

Jager,
        When you say they adamantly HO, are you saying they purposely position themselves for the HO or that if the opportunity presents itself will take that HO shot? 

How about an example scenario:

A fully loaded 190A8 is flying to a target for a JABO mission.  In front of him a pony (insert plane of choice) is climbing to intercept.  The pony is coming HO.  The 190 pilot puts the nose down a little and continues towards the target.  The pony continues to merge HO and soon will be in range of the 190's guns.  If the 190 pilot doesn't shoot the pony might.  If neither shoots the pony will be in a positon to flip around at the merge and get on the 190's six.


 

both on the first part. i know guys that go for the HO every time. in your example, that is a perfect picture of something i would do. duck the HO and unless someone was covering my behind, get Sixed. normally i push the nose down and hope that one of my squaddies will cover me. Usually storch or N72. otherwise, i end up a pile of twisted steel on the ground. but i wont HO, not on the first pass. PERIOD.

[Arlo]

However, in a world that doesn't involve a 190, heavy with child and in a situation it or it's pilot is ill-advised to habitually practice, try rudders more, mate. Slip out and up and cut back across or out and down and cut back up and in. Use a barrel roll merge. Wingover on his high six. Something more than diving and hoping a wingie or two covers you from the ho you're "ducking" (in other words -- at least apply a second axis of seperation, even IF you're the designated sacrificial Jabo bird). Let them (your designated guardian angels) cover you from the second or third bog you're not engaged with because that's what they're really there for, right?(Speaking of ... snapshots in a furball aren't HOs ... I'm sure you know.) Your decision not to joust is your decision to make - but I'd still work a better plan.  N72's bound to concur. Maybe even Storch by now .... or Kong, for sure.

[araiguma]

Three answers, each with a different approach to dealing with this one situation.  I still felt like the responsibility for avoiding the HO was aimed more at the 190 with child and less with the pony taking the direct HO route to intercept.  Others have said that "it takes 2 to HO"  or something along those lines.  What do you say to the pilot climbing up to intercept that 190 which might be getting ready to dive down on your field?  Other than "they jam is really good on the biscuits today ."

[storch]

I seldomly take the HO shot.  I dive and immel usually finding the HO'r wondering where I went as I pack his six full of 20mm.

there will be a few players who will now refute what I typed, these players should contact KONG for their free clues, KONG is generous like that and you might find the clue beneficial.

the 190 will turn and it is fun doing so.  those of you interested in learning to turn the 190 should fight the AI drone offline with the 190.  the AI drone is a better player than 90% of the players in the game and better than 90% of the current trainers.

[JagdTankker]

I seldomly take the HO shot.  I dive and immel usually finding the HO'r wondering where I went as I pack his six full of 20mm.

there will be a few players who will now refute what I typed, these players should contact KONG for their free clues, KONG is generous like that and you might find the clue beneficial.

everytime i have fought you in the MA or the AvA you come with the HO.

Kong can get his 1020 clue  N in M   

[OldBull]

i only HO shoot bombers

Just a question out of curiosity Jag, why all this self righteousness about who you HO or not? All this talk about a "Code of conduct" between the elite fighter jocks, but when it comes to the lowly bomber he is to be dispatched by the most convenient method, or because a head on shot to a bomber its generally a pretty safe shot for the fighter, because we all know that the bombers are only here for the amusement of the fighter pilots. We are only here to break the monotony in between the noble duels of you Gentlemen in your superb killing machines.
 Personaly I have little interest in the discussion of this "code of conduct" and I find it amusing that it is suggested that rules should be implemented to govern war, I seldom fly a fighter except to jabo in support of a squad mission, but if you pass thur my gun sites I will shoot you, from what ever direction you are coming and make no apologies about it.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers

[JagdTankker]

Just a question out of curiosity Jag, why all this self righteousness about who you HO or not? All this talk about a "Code of conduct" between the elite fighter jocks, but when it comes to the lowly bomber he is to be dispatched by the most convenient method, or because a head on shot to a bomber its generally a pretty safe shot for the fighter, because we all know that the bombers are only here for the amusement of the fighter pilots. We are only here to break the monotony in between the noble duels of you Gentlemen in your superb killing machines.
 Personaly I have little interest in the discussion of this "code of conduct" and I find it amusing that it is suggested that rules should be implemented to govern war, I seldom fly a fighter except to jabo in support of a squad mission, but if you pass thur my gun sites I will shoot you, from what ever direction you are coming and make no apologies about it.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers

because thats how you attack them.

is the B-17 gonna reverse and get on my 6 for a clean shot?

is the B-24 gonna go into ACM mode with 3 drones?

the classic way to attack a bomber is from the rear position.but we all know about the laserbeam guns on these bombers in AH.

[OldBull]

OK, I guess then that you are saying it is the safest shot for the fighter to HO the bomber but it is too much of a crap-shoot to HO against a fighter who can shoot you back. "No skill involved is the term I hear most often" Very courageous! I am compelled to ask how much skill is involved in Ho'ing the bomber? I too have noted however that the fighter pilots courage ( not you personally Jag, just the general mindset) diminishes greatly when he has to Man-up against the bombers rear guns. However as for the lazerbeam guns on the bombers, I sumit, that is a matter of perspective  depending on which side of the gun you are sitting on, I have not yet discovered the lazer like qualities.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers

[JagdTankker]

hunting bombers is about the most exciting thing you can do in this game.

i HO shoot them

i attack from the 6 position

i attack them from the side position

it is just fun to me

HOing another fighter is just lame, it is not about the kill that registered, it is about the fight that was recorded.

one day you may understand that, hopefully for your sake it is soon.

                

[OldBull]

Actually we are in agreement, hunting bombers is one of the most exciting aspects of the game and I attack them the same way as you do, I was just intrested to hear what you would say.As to fighter to fighter HO's history books as well as tv documentaries are filled with articles about fighters that approach each other from head on positions, it wasn't an occasional chance encounter it happened frequently and I just refuse to get caught up in the fighter HO mindset that is so prevalent in here.  As to what you hope for "my sake" don't worry about me, I understand the game well enough,it is just my interest that differs, I am not concerned about the "fight", my purpose here is about the mission.
 Let me also say this Jag, nothing I have said here is a personal attack against you, your statement about "only HO'ing bombers" just gave me the opportunity to offer a different point of view.
 <S>
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers

[Motherland]

the classic way to attack a bomber is from the rear position.

Hardly.
Reading through Heinz Knoke's (Bf.109 pilot and staffelkapitaen of 5./JG11, and Reich Defense Staffel) autobiography (which is more of a collection of journal entries), I was quite surpised at how closely the tactics that I and most bomber hunters use in-game resemble those that the real Reich Defense pilots used. You see, after the U.S. entered the war with their B17's and B24's, the Luftwaffe found that the overmodeled laser guns on the American buffs DID, infact, make a dead six attack all but suicide. Ever wonder why the B17G had 4 nose guns and 2 tail guns? That would be because the RVG units almost ALWAYS went for the head on attack first with bombers. In fact, 5./JG11's attacks all but directly mirror what we use in game (5./JG11 was also by far the most successful staffel of II/JG11, II/JG11 usually having more kills and less losses than most other units operating in the area). When they first ecountered the bomber stream, they would use WGr. 21cm rockets, or bombs, to break up the formation, continuing to pull out front for the HO. That attack I found almost eerily similar to what we use in game, as not only was the HO used almost exclusively against bombers, but they aimed for the exact same place, the cockpit, as I, at least, aim for ingame. After the head-on attack took down some bombers and spread the formation out even more, the staffel would either make another high-speed pass through the formation or start picking off stragglers. After the formation was split up enough, Knoke and his pilots WOULD hang a couple hundred yards of the 6-oclock of the buffs and load 'em with lead, but by this time the rear gunner was usually already dead.

Though, I agree whole-heartedly with Tankker on fighter HO's (*gasp!*). Here's the way I see it.
The basic concept of ACM is to get a guns solution on your opponent while denying your opponent a guns solution on you. While the HO does give you the second perameter, it does not give you the first. Thus, in my opinion, it is bad ACM. And, thus, in my opinion, I rarely shoot at someone with a guns solution on me, as we, in that situation, have both made a mistake and neither should 'win'.

<S>

[bcee]

Oink..........

I wondered what that did!