Author Topic: HO shot or Deflection?  (Read 3592 times)

Offline dirtdart

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2008, 09:10:18 AM »
I HO every chance I get.  The guys that crack me up are the ones who whine about it.  In WWII the guys flew nose to nose, saluted, then broke into the dogfight...right?  When did this become a point of AH etiquette?  It does take two to HO and in my case, there are certain planes you do not get with tight nose angles with... mossie / 110 and so on.  I fly a mossie and have any sort of deflection on a guy passing by me is a plus because I get to saw a wing off.  If I miss, more than likely I will die because lets face it, a mossie is not all that fast (no 479 MPH plane lol thread... or a C.202).  It is all fair in the game of AH in my minds.  Seriously... does it really matter?  I am tired of reading 200 and seeing guys gripe about being HO'ed.  It is a crutch, used exclusively to protect their egos in using poor judgement on which planes to pass directly in front of.  :salute
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Offline dedalos

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2008, 03:12:36 PM »
Sorry ... but in the MA arenas, show me your belly early, like what was described ... and I will gut you like a fish ... and then look for the next guy. If I was in the DA ... then that's another story ... I would do as you suggest and chop throttle for a second and then power on to acquire your 6 position.

Oh ... and shooting a planes belly is not an HO ... :t

Yep, but if you read what I said, you will see that I am reffering to him calling the early pull up cheaper then a HO
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline dedalos

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2008, 03:15:19 PM »

I think you're just trying to skew my words to avoid what I was really discussing. 

"In the example given, I agree, the guy pulling early is presenting a legitimate shot to his belly, has screwed up, and deserves to get hit.  In reality, I would seldom if ever take that shot- even though I feel it should be taken (and in reality, if I took it he'd be screaming "HO!!" on 200...).  Personally, I'd rather let the fight play out a bit longer, and since I see his mistake I can easily capitolize on it.  But, if you think about it, that just makes me feel better, doesn't it?  Lets me show off my aerial "mastery" a bit, right?  He sealed his fate by pulling early, in essence giving me his six, but by delaying my shot and doing a simple turn onto his six I can act/look like I earned the shot.  False bravado/skill IMO.  But it sure looks like that's what some people want to see.  He killed himself, but by waiting a few seconds I can shift the credit onto myself, right?  And be the better pilot for it, right?  LOL"

"They're counting on you to be polite and not shoot, and are attempting to take advantage of that and get around on you.  IMO, that's just as cheap, if not more-so, than the HO shot itself.  To not shoot them would be wrong.  They need to learn that exposing themselves to taking hits is a bad idea.  To not shoot would lead to them believing that maneuvering like this is OK, proper, and effective."

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Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline mtnman

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2008, 03:54:40 PM »
Yep, but if you read what I said, you will see that I am reffering to him calling the early pull up cheaper then a HO

I may not have been clear in this instance either.  If the pilot pulling up early (showing his belly) is doing so as an honest mistake, error, or whatever, I'd say it's not a "cheap" move. 

Or if he's doing it knowing the risk he's taking, and hoping he'll be able to dodge the expected bullet stream, but doing it anyway hoping for a positional advantage if he pulls it off, I'd also say it isn't "cheap".  It's a calculated gamble.

But if he does it thinking he should be immune to his opponent firing due to the "taboo" of taking HO shots, I would consider it a cheap move.  In that case he's taking advantage of a bogus (IMO) ettiquette concept, which he thinks should guarantee him safety through a maneuver that should have gotten him killed.

How can I tell what caused him to pull early?  It doesn't really matter, since IMO he should lose the fight in any of the three examples.  A big clue for me though is whether or not the "victim" complains about the HO.  About the only time I can think of for a valid HO complaint would be a many on 1 scenario where one of the many HO's the 1.  Any other complaint of HO should embarrass the guy complaining.

MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2008, 04:04:46 PM »
I apologize if I have twisted your words

Not a problem Dedalos.  I may be shifting my philosophy a bit now though.

I had a long boring night at work last night, and gave the whole HO thing some serious thought.  Although I started with an opinion on HO's right along the lines of the common, current philosophy of "HO's are bad", what I was forced to realize was that it's the complaints of HO's that are bad.  And, that the constant stream of complaints, the philosophy itself of "Ho's are bad", and the hesitation of many (myself included) to take those HO shots actually has the opposite effect intended, and actually cheapens our aerial combat.  IMO, the complaints are stemming from an embarrassment of being beaten by such a simple, beginner-type tactic, and that in an HO-won fight the victim should be the one embarrassed by being beaten so easily, rather than the shooter for winning so easily.

In short, IMO, anyone considering himself/herself as "skilled" in aerial combat should be too embarrassed by being beaten by the HO to complain about it and make it "public".

I also came to some neat conclusions when I gave some thought to "cowardice" and "bravery" in AH, which also seems to be a common topic on channel 200.

Probably would be a good discussion for a seperate thread, but I don't have time right now (off to work...)
MtnMan

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Offline SlapShot

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2008, 04:27:18 PM »
I HO every chance I get.

Your stats reflect that.

If I miss, more than likely I will die because lets face it, a mossie is not all that fast (no 479 MPH plane lol thread... or a C.202).

When you miss and when you "more than likely die" ... it has nothing to do with the plane your flying ... it all has to do with how you are flying your plane.
 
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Offline BnZ

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2008, 04:43:11 PM »
There is no such thing as "bravery" and "cowardice" in an online computer game, it is IMO innapropriate to toss those sacred words around like we do in regards to our pixelated air combat.

IMO, there ARE situations where a HO pass/FQ shot is harder to avoid than some would care to admit. Being close to the deck with no room to dive, or when both planes are low of E several turns into a dogfight are two examples. There are situations where one pilot often has the choice of either flying stubbornly towards the opponent and a potential M.A.D. scenario, or trying to prevent it by some change in vector that makes the opponent's shot more difficult, in the process giving the flyer who was trying to avoid M.A.D. at least a small chance of being shot down by what can now be claimed as a "clean" FQ deflection shot. In some cases, one might even say the willingness to go head-on can become an advantage. Of course, as the example of Ernst Udet teaches us, there is nothing a-historical about this.

However, I think icons and the destructiveness of AHII weaponry make it easier to land telling damage on a HO pass than it was in reality, when you had two planes coverging at 600+mph, going from specks on the windscreen to filling the windscreen and then past you in seconds.

Offline dirtdart

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2008, 11:50:37 AM »
Your stats reflect that.

When you miss and when you "more than likely die" ... it has nothing to do with the plane your flying ... it all has to do with how you are flying your plane.
 

There is always some fool who takes a serious discussion and belittles the people having the discussion.  I play once or twice a week because I am a company commander in the United States Army and don't have that much time.  I also fly with a squadron and bail, crash, whatever it takes to keep the mission flowing, not just rearming and playing selfishly.  I find you, slapshot, to be one of those elitist fools who make it hard on everyone, not remembering where you started or where you came from in relationship to this game.  I played AW back in the day and have been as active as I can be in this community.  Ho or not to HO, have a real discussion.  Accept that there are those with the skills and funds to have all the hot computers and good gear, and there are those who make by with what they have.  I play with an older computer, and old joystick, and laugh when I hear people get heart broken and insulted by a HO pass.  To them I say get a life or ping Hitech for an arena with guys who have scores under 100. 
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2008, 03:28:14 PM »
There is always some fool who takes a serious discussion and belittles the people having the discussion.  I play once or twice a week because I am a company commander in the United States Army and don't have that much time.  I also fly with a squadron and bail, crash, whatever it takes to keep the mission flowing, not just rearming and playing selfishly.  I find you, slapshot, to be one of those elitist fools who make it hard on everyone, not remembering where you started or where you came from in relationship to this game.  I played AW back in the day and have been as active as I can be in this community.  Ho or not to HO, have a real discussion.  Accept that there are those with the skills and funds to have all the hot computers and good gear, and there are those who make by with what they have.  I play with an older computer, and old joystick, and laugh when I hear people get heart broken and insulted by a HO pass.  To them I say get a life or ping Hitech for an arena with guys who have scores under 100. 

It is by remembering where I came from in this game that I respond to people who promote HOing in this game. Promoting such a tactic only hurts the overall gameplay and I have watched the quality of the fight(s) decrease as HOing has become a somewhat accepted tactic by those who don't care to learn how to fight without relying on the HO. Just because you only have a couple of hours to play doesn't preclude one from trying to learn something beside an HO.

Back when I started playing ... If you HOed consistently you were berated for doing so ... and so I carry the same message. Do what I did and die a million deaths, if needed, to learn how to fight and bring something else to the skys beside a lame HO.

My attitude, when it comes to HOing, is not elitist ... it come from seeing plane after plane come roaring in, guns blazing, hoping for the HO kill, because if they miss it ... they will surely die. I would much rather have a air-to-air knife fight ... win or loose ... as long as there was fight.
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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2008, 05:17:12 PM »
It is by remembering where I came from in this game that I respond to people who promote HOing in this game. Promoting such a tactic only hurts the overall gameplay and I have watched the quality of the fight(s) decrease as HOing has become a somewhat accepted tactic by those who don't care to learn how to fight without relying on the HO. Just because you only have a couple of hours to play doesn't preclude one from trying to learn something beside an HO.

Back when I started playing ... If you HOed consistently you were berated for doing so ... and so I carry the same message. Do what I did and die a million deaths, if needed, to learn how to fight and bring something else to the skys beside a lame HO.

My attitude, when it comes to HOing, is not elitist ... it come from seeing plane after plane come roaring in, guns blazing, hoping for the HO kill, because if they miss it ... they will surely die. I would much rather have a air-to-air knife fight ... win or loose ... as long as there was fight.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2008, 09:24:47 PM »
There is no such thing as "bravery" and "cowardice" in an online computer game, it is IMO innapropriate to toss those sacred words around like we do in regards to our pixelated air combat.

I agree 100%, and that's part of what I intended to touch on.  I also think that those terms are often tossed out in warped and misleading ways, particularly on chnl 200.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2008, 11:11:46 PM »
The HO is probably the most simple, most basic, most "instinctual" form of attack I can think of.  Easy to master?  Not exactly, but not all that difficult either.  It's very simplicity is probably why it's looked down upon.  Most of us feel as if we're "above stooping to that level" or feel others should feel that way.  However, I've come to reverse my thoughts in that respect, at least for the most part.  

Old habits die hard, but I'll do my best to NOT belittle those using the HO, and I'll be snickering at those who die by it, and laughing hysterically at those who whine about it.  Popular position to take?  No, but I'm OK with that.  Honestly, I'm embarrassed to realize I've taken part in the other option.  I feel like I've been acting like a lemming.  So here you go- beginner or ace, feel free to HO me.  If you shoot me down with it, that's fine.  I consider it as valid as any other shot angle.  Is whining about others using lesser tactics simply a way to claim superiority?  As in "I'm too good to use the HO!"

How effective is the HO? Not terribly, or at least it's not an overly "efficient or effective" tactic, simply because the probability of losing to it is as great as winning with it (if we ignore different gun lethality, etc).  After all, it's simply jousting, right?  If you mastered it, and used it for every fight, the long-term best you could expect is about a 50-50 chance of winning, which is low odds in my book.  Can it always be avoided?  Nope.  But that's the way it should be.

Would I teach others to use the HO?  No, although I do feel kind of bad about thinking that way.  I wouldn't, simply because I don't need to teach it.  It's probably the most "instinctual" method of shooting someone.  Point at the bad guy and shoot, simple as can be.  I also won't teach it because I believe that there are better, higher-probability-of-success (for the most part) tactics available.  I'll stick with those.  I don't teach people to land with their gear up either.  I think that as people realize they consistantly lose by using the HO as a tactic, they'll eventually want to find a better way.

Do I intend to start using the HO regularly?  No.  But that's mostly form a "greed" point of view.  I'm simply not willing to concede defeat as often as a win.  I'm not happy with a statistical K/D of 1/1.  I'll take the "high road" and fly in what has proven to me to be a "smarter" "safer" "more fun" manner.  I don't generally find losing to be as much fun as winning.  In reality, I doubt you'll ever see a 1/1 with the HO as a primary tactic.

But, I sure wouldn't deny the use of the HO either, for several reasons.  

For one- as a beginner to the game (or even a long-time player lacking advanced fighter skills), and fighting an "experienced" stick, it's flat-out your best (if not only) chance to live through the fight.  I can practically guarantee that if you're new to the game, and don't kill me with the HO, your chances of beating me are extremely slim.  You'd best leave quickly, and bring back some friends.  I'm not trying to brag- I'm just bluntly stating a fact.  I'd feel ridiculous belittling someone for attempting to use their best option for success.  The HO is a very basic, "no-brainer" tactic.  As such, it should be a "no-brainer" for me to watch out for it, and defend myself from it.  To consider the HO as an "invalid" tactic unfairly handicaps those who need it most.  "What?  You have no legs??  Here, lemme handcuff you before we race across the pool".

That said, if you want to beat me with any regularity you'll need to look into learning some better tactics.

What good are an "aces" uber-aerial-ninja skillz if he can be regularly dropped by the equivalent of a redneck kicking him in the the groin?  

I'd say the ninja needs to brush up on some basics.  I'm not saying there shouldn't be an effort to improve your skills, and learn some more effective tactics.  I'm saying people should be ashamed of themselves if they're verbally bullying less experienced players for not being experienced enough.

Two- if your opening (or later) move allows you to be HO'd, the fight should be over, or at least it (the HO) should be a legitimate option.  To have a shot at your opponent, and not take it out of a sense of it being a "taboo" tactic makes the fight a sham.  A mockery.  The "quality" fight that develops is essentially based on a "lie".  The fight could have easily been won, so anything that comes later is artificial.  The HO is a simple, basic tactic.  I don't want to hear about your uber skillz if you can't handle the basics.  Skipping the "basics" to get to the "good parts" isn't often a good policy.  I don't see why that simple idea shouldn't apply in AH.

Three- the overall low statistical effectiveness of the HO is what probably (I haven't researched the historical progression of air tactics, sorry...) lead to the desire to invent, recognise, learn, and teach the "better" "more advanced" tactics.  Without it as an option, the "better" tactics would appear to lose value.  A dollar is only worth more than a penny because the penny exists.  Remove the penny, and the value of the dollar is what, exactly?  Without change the dollar becomes the lowest value.  Without the HO the "better" tactics fall a notch as well.  Without poor tactics, what's the point of good tactics?

Four- removing the HO as a valid tactic to win a fight is IMO like removing other "basic" ways to win in competition.  IMO, it's equal to playing a game of basketball and saying "No free throws or 2 pointers will be counted!  Only the "skilled" shots from behind the 3-point line count".  Or a game of football where only touchdowns matter, no score for field goals or extra point kicks.  Or a game of golf where you could only win with "birdies" or "eagles", and were shunned for shooting "par".

Again- removing the HO as a valid tactic is removing one of the basics.  Without the simple basics to compare against, the advanced tactics aren't as advanced.  That fact alone gives the HO legitimate value.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 11:17:36 PM by mtnman »
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Offline Kermit de frog

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2008, 12:29:56 AM »
Mtnman, let me know when the movie comes out...

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Offline Slash27

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2008, 12:31:47 AM »
Kermit smells of cabbage.

Offline SlapShot

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Re: HO shot or Deflection?
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2008, 08:01:55 AM »
if I agree with you will you promise to still hate me?

I will always hate you ... I promise ... :D
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