Pickers and runners please help me understand...

[Scca]

I love irony and you don't disappoint.  The irony?  You insult my intelligence yet you are not capable of correctly spelling intellect.      WTG, dolt.

You call me a dolt, for a simple spelling error, yet you were unable to understand the simple concept outlined in this thread.  Talk about irony, lol.  It scares me that you are passing this attitude on to your kids.  Your post only proves my theory on your intellect, when you have no intelligent response, comment on grammar, spelling or punctuation.  This is typical of your behavior on the boards.

Now, back on topic.
It appears most people agree that the 1PHA players repeatedly running from fights, extending out of icon range, only returning once you are engaged is nonsensical in game that highlights aerial combat.  It also appears there is no real reason other than the fear of scratching the paint on your cartoon plane.

Someone said early on, it may have been a player new to the K4, and didn't have sufficient skills to do anything more than gun and run.  If that were the case, wouldn't it behoove them to at least attempt to engage even a Spit so as to learn what the abilities of the bird are, learn what works?

Dhyran, your Erich Hartmann reference is fine stuff for a real life pilot.  The real "game" in WWII is quite different than AH.  The "game" there was to win and live.  AH is about playing, and playing isn't running from a fight (at least as I see it).

[Bruv119]

moot is spot on  

some of the flying that went on during the ava Bofb setup was as described.

Great fights against decent emil flyers thrila, gian, bubi even came down from alt in his 110 to tangle with me.  Gavagai seems to have some sort of built in defence mechanism of never engaging unless with numbers.  Its smart/cowardly whatever angle you look at it.  live on the edge every now and again and you might enjoy it as others have stated.

[Scca]

I'm curious.  When you're flying something like a 190D-9, or a P-51, there's a Spitfire16 latched onto your 6 1000 yards out, and you're both going 300mph on the deck, do you turn to fight him?  Granted you've already made a mistake to get into that situation, but once you're there...  Is that how the game is supposed to be played?  Make yourself a target because it's the manly thing to do?  It's fun to shoot pilots who make mistakes, but it's far more fun to shoot pilots who are difficult and challenging to kill.  What you're asking for seems to violate this basic principle of competitive gameplay.  Personally, I find it disappointing and boring when my opponents don't try hard not to die.

First, I almost never fly a 51 or a 190D-9.  To me they encourage the very timid tactics I don't understand.  I do sometimes fly a 190A-8, so with that in mind, here is what I would do.  In that situation I would attempt a rolling or flat scissors to force an overshoot where I can get guns on him. 

If I was in a 190 5k over a Spit, I wouldn't run and gun like this player did.  Sure, my first attempt or two would be a BNZ, I wouldn't however extend more than necessary.  I would keep pressing the attack not allowing him to reset.  The very last thing I would do would be to make a few passes and extend out of the fight, all the time calling for help on range/squad channel, waiting for that help to arrive, then returning to the fight only once I knew the spit was busy (ah-hem) PLAYING THE GAME.

[Scca]

I'll tell you what SCCA.  Next time we're both in the MA at the same time I'll up a Spit IX, you up a K-4.  We'll pick an out of the way area of the map and do a few one on one's with DA merge rules.  Sound like fun?

I would be happy to do that.  You and I have tangled before. I would likely loose, but it will be fun.  I am not that good a stick, but I never run from a 1v1 fight.  I guess that's why my K/D is so poor.  I almost never run from a 2v1 fight either

[Scca]

Your missing the point as to what makes this game so good. You never know what the other guy is going to do, it may frustrate the hell out of you that they wont fight in a manner you want. Now if the game was a set format that this plane will do this then do that what would be the point it would be very predictable & boring.

Respectfully Lyric, you are missing MY point.  I don't care if he won't fight my way, I don't understand why he won't fight at all.  I am no expert in a K4, but I have seen some fantastic moves in a K4 that still baffle me.  It's a great plane, there was no reason to run as far as he did.

[killnu]

it is not the plane.  Just wanted to make that clear out of all this mess.  Seen some bad talk about K4s in this pile of rubbish somewhere...

[CAP1]

Hmmm, now I'm confused (not really an unusual state)....

You meet 4 opponents and dispatch 3 of them. The fourth obviously lacks the skill (or will) to give your spit a decent fight and refuses to commit. Hmm, 75% of your opponents fought and lost....and you want to come to the bbs and complain about the 1 guy that wouldn't let you kill him?

ey NB...how ya doin?

i think his point was that the onl time the 109 was willing to engage was when he had serious alt advantagfe, or when he thought that he wasn't looking?

[SlapShot]

A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom, the only decision you really have to make is which enemy you are going to choose to  latch onto, everything else is your plane's innate turn-rate combined with your instinct, reflexes and muscle memory. When you fly a relatively poor turner you must continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution (ie: those that egress 2 sectors after a high speed pass).

I am really surprised that you would paint with such a broad brush about those who fly a Spit or any other "turner".

[Rich46yo]

Ive learned far more from my defeats then I have from my victories.

And Ive learned a great deal when at a disadvantage. I learned how to fight 2 or 3 fighters at once only by doing it.

I think timidity will really stunt your growth in this game.

Another thing I blame this silly score system for.

[captain1ma]

no one plays for score!! they all play for fun!

[DaveJ]

I am really surprised that you would paint with such a broad brush about those who fly a Spit or any other "turner".

Well, it's true.

[SlapShot]

I'm curious.  When you're flying something like a 190D-9, or a P-51, there's a Spitfire16 latched onto your 6 1000 yards out, and you're both going 300mph on the deck, do you turn to fight him?

Sure ... why the hell not ? ... because you might die ? ... the horror !!! ... or maybe you just might win and/or learn something to use the next time you are in that situation.

If SkatSr was in the P-51, I would guarantee that he would back into the Spit16 and the chances that the Spit16 would win would be very slim ... and the reason would be that SkatSr has put himself into those situations previously and has the knowledge on how he can beat that opponent. If he was a P-50run pilot, he would not be as deadly as he is in a P-51.

This thread isn't about a BnZ plane trying to TnB with a TnB plane ... it's about timidity. The guy didn't even try to make a fight out of the first encounter ... he had to fly out of icon range and only then return when Scca was already engaged to try and pick him.

Spin it anyway you want ... the guy was a grapefruit.

[SlapShot]

Well, it's true.

Davey ... it's best to be thought a fool rather than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

He has totally minimized what it takes to fly the slower "turners" and be successful in them ... what he has described are those who fly "turners" who aren't the least bit successful in flying them.

It takes just as much skill to fly turners, and be successful, as it does to fly a TnB plane and be successful.

[DaveJ]

It takes just as much skill to fly turners, and be successful, as it does to fly a TnB plane and be successful.

I disagree with this completely.

In a good turning A/C , you can avoid most BnZ attacks all day and get them to fight your fight. It doesn't take much of a pilot to yank back on the stick and turn sharp to avoid.

Conversely, it doesn't take much of a pilot to BnZ all day either as they are showing no skill doing that. So I understand your point.

[ink]

i cant hit crap BnZing, that is one of the main reasons i went to the turners.
plus it just more fun of a fight IMO.