P51D

[BnZ]

I'm not trying to offend you Uptown. Believe me, if you are doing well with the P-51D, you are certainly above average.

(Image removed from quote.)

[Guppy35]

A few of us 38 dweebs went up with Fencer one night in 51s and I must admit I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did down low on the deck and in a turn fight.  A notch of combat flaps now and then, keep the speed up and have at it.  Will it get slow with a Spit? nope, but it sure seemed like I could hang with a 16.

Obviously I've never flown any real WW2 warplane, but the 51 sure seemed to respond like it's described in all the books I've read.  It wasn't meant to be a pure turn fighter.  It had to carry lots of fuel and do lots of things well.  If the Spit could have carried the fuel and had the range of a 51, there would have been no 51.  But the 51 could take the fight to the LW over their own turf and get the pilot home.  The Spit couldn't, nor could the Tempest, Tiffie or any other bird beyond the 38 and later 47s

Spend some time with the guys in here that live in 51s and see what they can do both up high and down low.  Like any of the birds here, making generalizations based on someone who has never flown any of the planes enough to know the limits, just doesn't make sense.

[uptown]

I don't really know how to explain this but will try. No one is saying the pony is the best plane in the set. But in the case of the pony you have to fly it right. Sure, a 109 will out climb me and out turn me. So I bait him into a high speed dive because i know he'll more than likely compress or have to pull out before i do. Same with 38s. LAs are a problem only if i see them too late. I either BnZ them or pull em up high. Higher the better. I guess what I'm trying to say is I fight against each plane a little different.
Your statement about running down a pony if you have enough E can be said about a 262 also.Alot of folks think the 51 is easy to fly, but you have to know what the enemy can and can't do before you can be very successful in it or any other plane for that matter.
If you happen to see the 412th in your sector we can explain it in clearer terms  

[uptown]

I'm not offended at all sir. I just love the 51 and wish everyone did as much as me, thats all. 

[BnZ]

I've ridden with Skatsr and Steve abit, watched what they can do. I have flown it a little. I have flown against it. I have, believe it or not, brought down a Spit time to time with the thing. All of this is irrelevant. Are we going to continue muddy waters by confusing brilliant piloting with having a brilliant aircraft?

I have seen Creton out-maneuver a Spitfire in the MA while flying a Fw-190A8. Obviously this means the Spitfire is no better in a close dogfight than the A8...  

Respond like its described in books? None of the books I've read describe it as being hopelessly inferior in maneuveribility to a 109G, or slightly inferior to a Jug in maneverability. (When the Brits say it can out-turn a 109, it is just barely possible their pilots did not understand the 109. When the Brits say it can out-turn the Hawker fighters, but doesn't in AHII, there are two possibilities. Either they didn't understand THEIR OWN AIRCRAFT, or it isn't quite modeled right. You tell me which is more likely) Granted, in AHII, you don't have to deal with the all-at-once stall, what with our stall-horn and buffeting convention, but that is true for every plane, so not much advantage to the Pony in that regard.

A few of us 38 dweebs went up with Fencer one night in 51s and I must admit I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did down low on the deck and in a turn fight.  A notch of combat flaps now and then, keep the speed up and have at it.  Will it get slow with a Spit? nope, but it sure seemed like I could hang with a 16.

Obviously I've never flown any real WW2 warplane, but the 51 sure seemed to respond like it's described in all the books I've read.  It wasn't meant to be a pure turn fighter.  It had to carry lots of fuel and do lots of things well.  If the Spit could have carried the fuel and had the range of a 51, there would have been no 51.  But the 51 could take the fight to the LW over their own turf and get the pilot home.  The Spit couldn't, nor could the Tempest, Tiffie or any other bird beyond the 38 and later 47s

Spend some time with the guys in here that live in 51s and see what they can do both up high and down low.  Like any of the birds here, making generalizations based on someone who has never flown any of the planes enough to know the limits, just doesn't make sense.

[BnZ]

I'm not offended at all sir. I just love the 51 and wish everyone did as much as me, thats all. 

Hopefully you understand, my point and concern is that your favorite plane is poorly represented.

[BaldEagl]

BnZ, there's some pretty good Pony D sticks out there.  I'd give up while you're behind. 

I fought someone in one one night on a co-alt merge starting at ~16-17K in a Spit.  If they can use a nose low vertical fight with flaps out they are far from an easy kill, even by a Spit.  The problem in this fight with the Spit is that you don't want to slow it down and offer the P-51 a chance to extend away, so it becomes a surprisingly close match-up, at least until it reaches the deck.

[Adonai]

I've flown most aircrafts for a few tours and I find it seriously interesting that people can say a P51 is not a good dog fighter. Ask yourself this before considering it for 8 eny, have you flown this aircraft for a few tours to learn how to fly it? Or just practice what everyone else does: boom and zoom and run?

While everyone is correct a P51 wont roll with a 190 or turn with a Spitfire, what about what these other birds cant do? Where a 190 cant turn, a P51 can stay in his corner, (im talking Dora model not A5, which will in fact turn inside a mustang). Answer is basically P51 is a very balanced dogfighter, you just need to learn adjust your tactics around you to fit the plane. In the right hands and right tactics this bird is pretty much amazing, keep it fast and high it will give any plane a run for its money. Its not the plane that matters, P51 just has awesome all around stats, it just doesn't beat any plane other then speed in 1 general area, this is why its not the "Best dogfighter" out there. Where a 109 can't dive, a P51 can, where a spit can climb, it still can't dive with a p51, using these general attributes is what you need to learn to fight effectively.
Nothing wrong with disengaging and heading home when your out numbered, but its the poptart's that after they make one move and lose they decided to bolt out rather then up another cartoon plane and try something else, or go back to pick and run.

While uptown and SkatSr fly the P51 with pride, I love my Me109g14. Not a fast bird, out climbs a few planes, doesn't out turn, or out run.
I look at it as experience grows and once you learn your ride inside out (im not saying I have) then you break the ice and begin to learn.

Just my input.

[Motherland]

Respond like its described in books? None of the books I've read describe it as being hopelessly inferior in maneuveribility to a 109G, or slightly inferior to a Jug in maneverability. (When the Brits say it can out-turn a 109, it is just barely possible their pilots did not understand the 109.

The 109G is a 7000 lb aircraft. The P51 is a, IIRC 10,000 to 12,000 pound aircraft. Also remember that by the time the P51 showed up in large numbers the vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were extremely unexperienced. So you have British pilots who were unfamiliar with the type and German pilots who were unfamiliar with the type being out turned by P51 pilots who were very well trained and familiar with the type.

See my being able to out turn Spitfire Mk16s in the P51 and Ta152.

[uptown]

sorry wrong thread 

[Adonai]

The 109G is a 7000 lb aircraft. The P51 is a, IIRC 10,000 to 12,000 pound aircraft. Also remember that by the time the P51 showed up in large numbers the vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were extremely unexperienced. So you have British pilots who were unfamiliar with the type and German pilots who were unfamiliar with the type being out turned by P51 pilots who were very well trained and familiar with the type.

See my being able to out turn Spitfire Mk16s in the P51 and Ta152.

Exactly "unexperienced" I read enough stories how a lone 109 ace handled 3-4 P-51's with ease like nothing. Dogfights even had one about a 109 pilot, had to of been an ace, was keeping a half dozen p51's at bay on the deck. I wish i knew who was the ace they were talking about, I checked and couldn't find any leads to who was flying in the area they were talking about. Granted if you had 1000 combat missions in a P-51, I think luftwaffe would of been generally SCREWED - Lucky for the boys escorting those bombers, luftwaffe numbers dropped considerably.
However I give great credit to the P47 pilots as they were first to arrive and showing Jerry a lesson to what a JUG can do.

[uptown]

I seen that show also, and wanted to know who that German pilot was. 1 on 1 those ponys would have been in deep do-do

[Motherland]

That could have been a multitude of pilots on a multitude of occasions... do you have the date and location by any chance?

[uptown]

it was over Belgium in 44 or 45 is all i remember. Over an American airfield

[Motherland]

it was over Belgium in 44 or 45 is all i remember. Over an American airfield

Ah was it Y29 (Op: Bodenplatte)? New years day 1945?